Speaker 1 0:01 Welcome to JRN306 podcasts. Bashair Ali 0:04 I'm Josh and I'm Bashair. Josh Chang 0:06 And today we're gonna be getting personal. Bashair Ali 0:08 Well, I am actually, Josh Chang 0:09 I mean, yeah. I mean, what a wild ride. We've gone through putting this together. I'm really excited to get into it. Bashair Ali 0:15 For sure. The process was fun, but so tedious at the same time. Josh Chang 0:20 And as fun as this was to do, we weren't lying when we said we're going to be getting personal. How are you feeling? Are you okay? Bashair Ali 0:26 Yep, I'm ready. Josh Chang 0:27 Go for it. Walk me through the story. Bashair Ali 0:29 So picture this. Last summer when I was 19, I walked into the kitchen wearing my gym clothes. I was wearing a pair of grey shorts and a sports bra. My mom was on the phone. And when she saw what I was wearing, she said, I'll be dead before you go wearing that . Her eyes were ablaze. Not only was she yelling at me, she told me the same thing she always does when she's upset with me. You need to be closer to God and start praying. Josh Chang 0:53 I'm sorry to hear that. That really doesn't sound like fun. How did you feel when she said that? Bashair Ali 0:57 You know, my parents raised me with the understanding that I should be dressing modestlyCoshhang And that really takes a toll on my mental health. I had felt like I had to hide myself and couldn't express who I was at home, leading me to become anxious, insecure, and creating religious confusion. Josh Chang 1:12 What do you mean, when you say religious confusion? Bashair Ali 1:15 I became really confused as to whether or not I should continue to follow this religion. My parents perception of it their expectations of me. And their explanations as to why I should or should not do things would just lead me to ask myself questions on top of questions. But they didn't have any answers. Their message was kind of like do this because that's what we said. No questions asked. Josh Chang 1:35 And this is something that's ongoing. Bashair Ali 1:37 Yes. Josh Chang 1:38 What kind of support do you have right now? Does anyone in your life or around you understand what this is? Like? Bashair Ali 1:44 Somewhat, but overall, talking to anyone in my immediate family about mental health just resulted in me feeling alone. I've been desperate to find someone who could relate to me. That's why I wanted to dive into it in this podcast episode. Josh Chang 1:56 Honestly, when we were both working on researching for this episode, I was nervous. I won't even deny it. I haven't had a ton of practice or experience writing in communities that I'm not a part of, let alone reporting on mental health in another community. Bashair Ali 2:09 So what made you decide to tackle this topic with me? Josh Chang 2:13 I see a lot of similarities between Islam and Christianity, which is the religion I'm a part of. There are a lot of expectations in Christian communities too. I was raised to follow certain guidelines to reach certain goals. As someone who has also felt unsupported in my mental health because of some religious beliefs within my family, I feel as though it's important to talk about. Bashair Ali 2:32 Definitely, I wanted to make sure that the people we reached out to were Muslims themselves, whether they were other students or mental health professionals, I really wanted to connect with someone who also practices Islam, and has an understanding of how mental health might be seen in some Muslim families. Josh Chang 2:48 Actually, can we talk about how difficult it was to find people to talk to for this story? I think we must have reached out to what, like eight or nine sources to begin with? Bashair Ali 2:57 Yeah, he was quite a hassle. Josh Chang 2:59 But honestly, I kind of understand how it would be difficult to find someone brave enough to talk about their mental health, especially when it comes to religion. Bashair Ali 3:06 For sure, to discuss my mental health concerns and admit I needed help other than asking God took a long time because I feared I would be judged by my Muslim family and community. Not to say that my community isn't supportive and understanding. But I knew I was going to get a bunch of answers along the lines of start to pray and God will bless you, or read the Quran and your life won't be full of hardships due to the grace of God. Josh Chang 3:30 So again, it's understandable that we didn't get a lot of people who are willing to share their stories. One of the first people who got back to us was third your politics student Layli Tabibi. And she opened up to us about her mental health journey as a Muslim woman. She noted that there was more stigma towards mental health before the pandemic. Speaker 4 3:47 There was a bit more stigmatism around the topic. It was frowned upon. And then I think the pandemic people are staying home and I think using their voices more and now it's a little bit more like we're acknowledging it but I wouldn't say everyone's in the mosque is like proudly saying that, you know, they suffer from whatever because there still is some root like gossips and stuff around people who do suffer from it. Bashair Ali 4:14 Layli's right. But while facing the pandemic allowed mental health and Layli'scommunity to be more advocated for. I'm not sure I can say the same. Having to stay home constantly interacting with the same faces specifically my parents was difficult. Unfortunately, that stigma still exists in my house and it burdens me. My home is filled with never ending fights with cold shoulders and awkward silences. Overall making me want to spend the least amount of time there because who wants to be uncomfortable in their own home? Josh Chang 4:44 For sure, I noticed that I had a lot more time to consider my mental health when at home. It didn't necessarily get better, though. How would you describe the stigma around mental health in your family? Bashair Ali 4:54 So both of my parents were born in Muslim countries where the religious guidelines for behavior were much stricter. It's hard to erase what's been ingrained in them since their childhood. And sometimes when I put myself in their shoes, I can see why my parents raised me the way they did. After all, that's all they knew. Josh Chang 5:11 And when we were looking for people to talk to for this episode, it was especially challenging to find a Muslim mental health professional in particular that was available to speak with us. Bashair Ali 5:20 You know, it was important to find someone that both practices Islam, and has a professional background in mental health, because we wanted to find someone with enough expertise to give a non biased opinion. Josh Chang 5:31 We managed to get in touch with Amal Katube and she's a Muslim social worker who specializes in working with youth, adults and families. She has worked with a lot of clients who have experienced this kind of similar to yours bushfire, Speaker 5 5:42 Especially if their families tend to be first generation or immigrant families, there's a lot of stigma that surrounds mental health. And what we know about newcomer first generation families, there can be a divide, sometimes the generational divide between the parents and the children, sometimes bringing about bringing it up with their parents may not be validated or taking seriously. Bashair Ali 6:06 I'm 20 years old, and my parents still do that. It's like, when will they ever understand, you know, I don't know the feeling of validation when confiding my feelings and emotions to my parents, because I'm just not taken seriously. Josh Chang 6:19 I'm sorry to hear that. It's for reasons like this, that our goal was to find people you could connect with about this. Layli did talk to us about her parents. And she told us that whenever she would feel anxious before a test or exam, her parents would just tell her that only praying would be enough for her to to not have to worry Speaker 4 6:35 When I felt bad for them, because I'm pretty sure like that was the that was the advice they were given. And like I can imagine, like maybe back then that's the only like thing you could do. Josh Chang 6:45 Can you relate to what she said? Bashair Ali 6:47 Definitely. Josh Chang 6:48 That generational gap is something that I believe has such a lasting impact. When you're a child growing up and discovering yourself, I can see how solutions for stress and mental health between child and parent would be different. Like what went through your mind when you heard that? Bashair Ali 7:02 You know, this reminds me of a perspective my parents have and it's kind of rubbed off on me in a way. It's the idea that any minor inconvenience, like stubbing your toe or getting a bad grade is a result of not living the life God intended for you. So when I make a mistake, even if it's a small one, I can't help but feel like I'm being punished. I feel torn between the idea that even a problem was small, stubbing my toe was caused by living a different lifestyle. And the fact that I felt like I was being unheard. Josh Chang 7:30 Are you comfortable sharing an example of that? Bashair Ali 7:33 Of course, I remember like it was yesterday, I was eating dinner at my dining room table with my mom. And during this time, I was at one of the lowest stages of my life, and it was clearly visible. So my mom began a conversation with me by asking me what was wrong, and I was reluctant to speak up for fear of being judged. But I decided to give it a shot and tell her how I've been feeling for the past couple of months. It ended negatively, with tears being shed on both ends. She told me to stop living a sinful life and everything would be better. The thing is, I don't believe the way I live, my life is wrong. I honestly regretted the entire dialogue, and wished I had kept my mouth shut. Josh Chang 8:11 Thank you for sharing that that must have been difficult to go through. Bashair Ali 8:15 That's a big part of why I want to talk about this. You know, for me, religious practices alone do not support my mental health. Praying, for example, might be the answer for some people's problems. But I know it isn't the only answer to mine. Josh Chang 8:27 You definitely aren't the only one. When Amal was talking to me about some of her experiences. As a Muslim therapist, she mentioned what I would describe as a single cause fallacy is actually quite common. Bashair Ali 8:37 Wait, what's a single cause fallacy? Josh Chang 8:40 It's the idea that because one thing affects something else, it's the only thing that can affect it. For example, in this case, it's the idea that because religious practices are something that can help your mental health, it's seen as the only thing that can help your mental health. Speaker 5 8:53 The common response that many clients that I work with, that they get from their families may be something like, Well, if you just pray, you can get rid of your mental health challenge or, you know, if you if you just follow this specific spiritual practice, you won't be facing this mental health challenge. And this is a very simplistic form of looking at mental health and not realizing how complex it is. Josh Chang 9:18 How often have you heard that? Bashair Ali 9:20 Josh, if I had a dime for every time I heard that in my life, I'd be rich. Layli told us about her mixed feelings when it comes to her parents' views. Speaker 4 9:29 So I felt bad for them that that's the only thing they could tell me. And then second, it was really irritating because it's like, okay, I get it, like, just pray. And then third, you feel like a bad person. When it's like, my religion isn't helping me like God isn't helping me. You kind of feel bad. Bashair Ali 9:45 I can honestly relate. I try sometimes to consider my parents' point of view. And I wish that they would be the same when it comes to understanding that I need other sources of mental health support. It would be nice to have an adult someone who has age experience in Islam to sympathize with me. Josh Chang 10:00 All in all, I feel like this topic is so relatable in general, it feels familiar because I believe mental health stigma exists in many cultures to some degree. So when we talk about having our mental struggles diminished, I can recall some of my own lived experiences as well. Bashair Ali 10:14 Do you feel like people from other religions can relate to what I've gone through? Josh Chang 10:18 Absolutely. Amal even talks about how mental health is viewed across all backgrounds, and some reasons as to why it's sometimes looked down upon. Speaker 5 10:25 Stigma, unfortunately exists across all cultures and all family backgrounds. And I really think it comes down to many different factors, including immigration status sometimes or sometimes also challenges around education or lack of awareness of mental health. Bashair Ali 10:45 You know, hearing that from another Muslim woman made me feel kind of heard, I felt that it was going to be near impossible to find someone that both followed Islam and also empathized with the importance of maintaining our mental health. You know, Islam is the second largest religion in the world, about 1.9 billion people. And still it wasn't easy finding others that were willing or available to speak to us. Josh Chang 11:07 In a way, I'm actually grateful that we struggled the way that we did. Because we were able to find genuine stories to write about, rather than trying to write our own. Not only are we able to amplify your voice, but Layli's experience and Amal's wisdom. Actually, do you remember at the very beginning of this assignment, when we were interviewing people and trying to pinpoint good quotes? Bashair Ali 11:26 Yeah, that was a fun time. Josh Chang 11:27 Yeah. And my mindset at the time was like, confirm topic, interview sources, use clips to support topic. Kinda like a persuasive essay structure in a way. But in one of our classes, we had Matt Amha, the producer of the podcast, the Africas vs. America visit us. After his presentation, I had asked him for advice on how to structure the best predetermined podcast angle. Bashair Ali 11:48 What did he say? Josh Chang 11:48 What do you said actually really surprised me? He said, don't make a predetermined angle. And I was like, what? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a podcast pitch. But later on, our professor Shari told us that our job as journalists isn't to use people to suit a story we've imagined in our minds. We're meant to discover stories that other people are actively living and share them. And that's what turned on the light switch for me. Bashair Ali 12:10 You know, when we started working on this podcast, I definitely walked into it a little too confident just because of my passion for the matter. I assumed people would come crawling to be involved. But that's not how it turned out at all. The topic comes with sensitivity, the interviewee has to be vulnerable. And that's just something not everyone is willing to do. Josh Chang 12:29 And that's when I think we really started to take off. I had an amazing time asking questions for the purpose of hearing their story, rather than just asking them for grey answers. Bashair Ali 12:38 Absolutely. And I'd like to end off with a message Amal shared during her interview, listen to this. Unknown Speaker 12:44 So the message would be is that if you're facing any mental health challenges, it's never a reflection of who you are as a person, it's important that if you're still carrying that trauma with you to do the work around the healing that's needed, so that we don't continue passing down that trauma to future generations. Josh Chang 13:04 I love that. I appreciate how she's acknowledging that trauma is valid, but advises to put in the work to healing it rather than denying it. Bashair Ali 13:11 In turn that prevents this trauma and miscommunication that we've been talking about from being passed down to the next generation. Josh Chang 13:18 That's beautiful. And how do you feel now that we've talked to them? Bashair Ali 13:21 This project has definitely helped me in finally being able to relate with not only a fellow Muslim on your my age, but a Muslim mental health professional as well. It was kind of like I knew I wasn't the only one moment, you know, which is an amazing feeling. By the way. In terms of the journey, it was tough having to look back on some unhealthy experiences in my personal life, because of it being quite traumatizing. However, opening up and sharing definitely took some weight off my shoulders. Josh Chang 13:47 I'm so happy to hear that. Even as someone who isn't Muslim, I feel much more informed on mental health and Muslim households now. And I'm glad we were able to find people that could vouch for the importance of recognizing it, because it can be pretty difficult to use your voice to address it. When you have trouble feeling supported. Bashair Ali 14:03 Me too. Adding in those voices really pulled everything all together. Josh Chang 14:07 Honestly, this overall experience has been so insightful, and it doesn't stop here. Bashair Ali 14:11 For sure. There's a lot of work to be done, but I feel like this experience is the start of something incredible. Josh Chang 14:17 I can't wait. For today though. That's unfortunately all the time we have. Bashair Ali 14:20 Thank you so much for listening. I'm Bashir. Josh Chang 14:22 And I'm Josh and we hope we'll see you on our next episode of JRN podcasts. Bashair Ali 14:28 Stay blessed. Josh Chang 14:29 Forever and always. Transcribed by https://otter.ai