Mia 0:00 Before we start this episode, we'll mention topics related to sexual assault and trauma. If you need support, you can find information about where to turn for help. I consent comes first at Toronto Metropolitan University. Chris 0:13 The thing about podcasting is if you lose people free even just a second, you're just one button away to the next podcast, right? Mia 0:28 Actually, yeah, well, yes. getting somewhere. Did we get them? What do you think Mari? Mari 0:34 Yeah, um, yeah. Hopefully we got their attention for the next 10 minutes or so they're going to have to get really used to our voices. Mia 0:40 We're going to be getting up close and personal with you. But on an audio level? Mari 0:45 Yeah. And what are we like two in a million podcasts today? Mia 0:48 Podcasts are everywhere. Most of them are current events, gossip, advice. They're mostly based in the real world. But how do you take real stories and put them through a fictional lens? What's that world like? Mari 1:02 Wait, is this really a podcast about a podcast? Test test test test? I'm just gonna test how it looks like, how it sounds like. Mia 1:12 Hi, I'm Mia Johnson, Mari 1:13 and Mariana Schuetze. And this is a podcast about podcasts, where we explore audio drama narratives, and how fictional truths can get a larger truth than nonfiction. Mia 1:22 I come from a theatre background. And I was always so amazed when I would walk away from plays, and just left with this all this new sensibility and awareness that would be left with me. And with the audio format that is accessible to me in a completely different way. It's interesting, really, Mari 1:36 yeah, to be honest, I had never come across a fictional podcast before. But epiphany really caught my attention. Mia 1:41 Yeah, you were the one that came to me, you were like me, Mia, you have to check out this podcast. I mean, it's like a podcast, but not in the traditional way. Mari 1:48 Yeah, I was just very intrigued by the format. As a writer, I love storyt elling. And this is a very different way of telling one. So I wanted to learn more about it. And one of our friends want to know is one of the writers. And I just thought that we had to talk to Haylee Thompson, the Creator. She's a fourth year media production student here at TMU. And Epiphany started out as her final year project. It's a podcast, but it's a scripted story. Mia 2:10 We sat down with Haylee to see how all this came to be what the process was, like, from the very beginning to post production, which is where the team is at now. What's really cool is that it actually started out as a one woman play, like, who comes up with that that's such a bold idea for a school assignments, Haylee 2:26 I definitely think it's the best way to tell it. Because we've curated the whole script around the audio format. I think that in any medium that you use, you can have a lot of different responses to something. And it definitely would have looked entirely different if the script had continued in its original vision. Mari 2:44 Yeah. And that's what's so cool about this, you can tell the same story in different formats. And each time you get something different. Mia 2:51 Who knows what that one woman play would have looked like? Haylee 2:53 Yeah, I feel like the format it is in now is best suited for audio. You could not take this script and do a one woman play with it. But that's not the point. Because we've we've moved away from that. That was my crazy initial idea. Mari 3:06 Making a podcast is hard. We know that. And Haylee told us that she was only able to pull off this crazy idea. Because of her amazing team of collaborators like Addison, who we also interviewed for our podcast. Mia 3:17 Addison Holley the director of Epiphany, but it's also an actor. She's been acting since she was seven years old. Addison 3:23 I thought I could bring my voice voiceover work history and to the project and hopefully be a great director for it. And that's kind of why I joined Mari 3:37 Addison to saw the potential of all that Haley star you could be Addison 3:40 when I read Haylee's it really kind of the storyline it it's a an important and and beautiful storyline. And so that really drew me Mia 3:51 epiphany is a coming of age narrative at its core, and all its episodes center around its main character, Jamie, Haylee 3:56 an 18 year old she's moving away from her home in Victoria BC. She's moving to the big city of Toronto for the first time. But she has a lot of personal trauma that she hasn't confronted. And it's kind of explores the manifestation of how trauma can affect you in ways that you don't think it will. Mari 4:22 Epiphany deals with sexual assault by putting the characters healing journey at the forefront of the narrative. Haylee 4:27 Most of them use the the assault as the, like climax of the story, which we didn't like we wanted it to be about this journey and recognize that it's a really hard struggle for survivors. But to show that it is possible and it is something that you can do in there is help out there. So that's kind of the main message of the story, a lot of nuance to it. There's layers Mari 4:53 as a writer, how different is it to write for, like this audio narrative instead of like a play or something else you've written before? Haylee 5:00 writing for th e ear is something very different, you've got to like check yourself every step of the way. Obviously, you're in a theater, there's one person performing a bunch of roles, you kind of get it, they can embody it physically. But through just just hearing it, that's a lot harder. So then we we transitioned it. So it was like a multi actor story. Mari 5:21 I love how easy it is for anyone listening to the podcast to be able to envision themselves in this story. Addison 5:26 Because there's not a visual and you're not actually seeing an image for Jamie, you can kind of create that image in your own mind. I definitely think it does kind of enhance that, that idea because it leaves it leaves kind of the imagination up to the listener. Mari 5:44 For this episode, we really wanted to get in touch with Chris Tolly, who we thought would be the perfect person to help us understand a bit more about telling stories in an audio only format. Chris 5:53 You know, as you know, with podcasts, most people listen with earbuds. And like the sound just inches away from your brain, it's like as an intimate of an experience as you could possibly get. And the people, the people, the actors, I mean, are performing just for you. And it's an incredibly intimate and special experience that way. Mia 6:23 Chris is a writer, producer and director. He's the co-artistic director of Expect Theatre in the distillery district. And in the last few years, he's been the co-producer along with Laura Miller of the CBC podcast PlayME, which turns Canadian plays into bingeable audio drama. playme 6:39 This is PlayME your digital theater. I'm Laura Mullen. And I'm Chris Tolley. Mia 6:47 So I guess it was probably about six years ago, my partner at Expect theatre, Laura Mellon and myself, we were sitting back, and we were or theater artists, directors, producers, writers, and we loved the ephemeral side of theater. But that's got this great sort of excitement and electricity. But at the other end, the fact is, you have to be at a certain place at a certain time to catch a show. And then it's gone. And we have been dabbling a little bit in in audio recordings and podcasting. And we thought, well, what if we sort of merge those two ideas, so we created PlayMe, which would take theater shows and turn them into audio dramas. Mari 7:37 And the cool thing about PlayMe and something that Chris talked a lot about, is that it allows them to create this fingerprint of Canada moving outside of the Toronto centric scene. Mia 7:45 Yeah, I've listened to a bit of PlayMe and they have some shows that are funny and feel good. And ones that sort of just rip your heart out. I love art that just makes me feel all of the things. Mari 7:55 And that's exactly what epiphanies doing, they're tackling an important subject that's very present in our daily lives in a fictional way, looking to reach people differently. Mia 8:03 Both Hayley and Chris mentioned how accessible audio narratives are with podcasts and streaming services, anyone with an Internet connection can reach it. Chris 8:11 You know, theater tickets aren't that expensive, but still just putting a price tag on it suddenly limits the number of people can see. Mari 8:19 We were curious to know the impact fictional performances have on audiences on whether or not this medium touches on real life experiences in the same way that nonfiction does. To me, I really connect a lot with fictional stories, they make me stop and look at my own experiences a lot more than nonfiction. This, especially because a lot of the time it's made up, I feel like I can connect a lot more without the pressure of judging someone's real life experience. Mia 8:41 Yeah, when I feel more of a connection with certain characters, when I can really see myself in them, they bring up these very raw emotions. Haylee 8:48 I think one of the reasons we've kind of come back to again and again, is because it's so personal. It's very easy as a just an audience member to connect with something that you hear because you can envision anyone in that you can put yourself in Jamie our narrator shoes, we kind of liked that. It's just a voice because then it can be anyone and anyone can relate to this story. And that's kind of the thing about sexual assault. It's happens to anyone, there's no perfect survivor, and there's no perfect trauma process, which is kind of something we wanted to highlight. Mia 9:29 Chris tells us every sound is intentional. Mari 9:34 Well, maybe not this one. Chris 9:36 When somebody gets up from a chair. You can tell whether they're angry, or whether they're leaving reluctantly, or like everything can be told through that sound effect. And it's the exact same with as you build all those sound effects. How somebody puts a cup of coffee down on a table tells you the world about what they're saying. thinking inside, which may be the opposite of what they're saying. Mia 10:03 These types of decisions were instrumental in the creation of epiphany. It is a true testament to how the team operates. So much thought is put into every little detail. Mari 10:11 Addison's experience as a voice actor also came in as a huge asset. When she was directing and thinking about what sounds to include in this story, Mia 10:18 I was really interested to hear the physicality that goes into the voice work, they're so active, they really have to overcompensate for that loss of visuals. Addison 10:26 Just if you're listening to audio when someone's actually moving, you hear that in the vocal tone, rather than just like, obviously sitting or if you're running like, although you can't actually physically run in a recording studio. Even just like movement of running like your arms, whether I'm like, I'll give you an example like, or like, you can like kind of hear that difference. So yeah, things like that were really important. Mia 10:52 Even with all these added qualities, sounds, music accessibility, there are still some things the audio format cannot capture. Chris 11:00 I think the thing and I don't think you can really replicate it now but you did in the past, is the collective experience of being in a room and try to like fight back tears, and knowing that you're surrounded by other people who are trying to do that, too. With podcasting, it's great, because you can listen, anytime, anywhere, you can be on a treadmill, you can be walking down Queen Street, like you can be, you know, you know, you can be experienced different worlds, no matter what you're doing. But the downside is, of course, you lose that collective experience. So I think that's what I wish I could capture and sell in a bottle. Mia 11:51 I really agree with Chris, I don't think this is a feeling that can be totally replicated. There really is nothing like sitting in a theater and everyone holding the space around you and feeling it in their own way. In shows I used to do back in high school, we'd have to hold the space at high emotional points. And you could really just feel it the energy in the room. Mari 12:09 But that being said, there's still something special about an audio only story. It brings something new. And this is why we're doing this. Haley mentioned you're planning on putting it out but January or something. What are your plans? Yes. Whats coming next. Yeah. Addison 12:23 So what's coming next is you can follow our Instagram at TMU Epiphany. So we will be posting all updates on there. It will eventually, the final product will be on our website, as well as we are looking into Spotify and Apple podcast right now. So it'll be on streaming platforms to listen as well. So that's where you can find us so excited. Yes, we can't wait to hear it. We're really excited. This episode was produced by Mariana Schueyze and Mia Johnson. Thanks for listening. Yay. Hey, there you go.