RETAIL
Tue, 12/21 6:18PM • 35:02
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
retail, pandemic, trends, consumers, people, acceleration, big, properties, businesses, bit, e commerce, started, industry, retailer, ecommerce, costco, residential, store, transit, growth
SPEAKERS
Pietro Nenci, Jonathan Gitlin, Clip, Afua Mfodwo, Carl Boutet, Bruce Winder, Chris Lombardo, Daniel Johnson

Afua Mfodwo  00:04
Since the start of the pandemic, online shopping has become more popular. But how is this affecting retail stores? In this episode, producer Daniel Johnson answers this question to understand what the future holds for the retail shopping industry. My name is Afua Mfodwo and this is unraveled.

Daniel Johnson  00:35
So this is me on my weekly trip to the young Eglinton center to run errands. The mall is located at the intersection of Yonge and Eglinton in Toronto. And it's a mixed use center with over 210 units of retail and over a million square feet of storefront. The property is owned by REO can a real estate investment trust and it houses prominent companies like Indigo. So for Metro and more. I've been coming here to run errands, but once a week for a long time. But I distinctly remember coming here for the first time after the pandemic, and it felt like not much had changed. The model was the same and the main group of retailers survived. But so much had changed for the retail businesses that operate in this space. Between curbside pickup, digital integration, experiential, retail and more major trends have been shaping the future of retail as it competes with E commerce. Some say the pandemic has accelerated these trends, while others say the lines between ecommerce and retail no longer exist. In this episode, we will explore what the future of the retail market might look like. But let's back up a little bit here. I first got interested in retail when I worked at a consumer insights website before I was a journalism student. There I covered emerging trends in retail and worked on customized research reports for retail clients. I learned all about how retail integrated e commerce into its operations started loyalty programs, and in general look for new and innovative ways to add value to consumers who made the trip to brick and mortar stores instead of just buying their products online. I also worked there when the pandemic first hit and it was chaotic. It was a first hand lesson in the potential for a crisis to change industries that now had to innovate to survive. Things like curbside pickup started to emerge and suddenly e commerce integration was in necessity. Many of the pre pandemic trends got accelerated. One person who spoke about this acceleration is Carl Boutet. He's a retail strategist and author of the great acceleration, the race to retail resilience. I asked him about what the great acceleration is and how it relates to the retail market.

Carl Boutet  02:58
So the great acceleration is a term I coined back in April 2020. During a friend of mines book club, own book launch, Steve Dennis and there was a panel that we'd organized during his book launch where I was with Scott Galloway, who's a famous sort of prognosticator professor and entrepreneur out of the US and, and Seth Godin, who is also a very well known marketing sort of Guru. So we can use those terms still. And yeah, and basically, we were talking about the idea that, you know, what we were witnessing again, this is like one month into, you know, the pandemic and then learned just sort of really starting to grasp what was happening with all the lockdowns and the trends that were that were occurring with acceleration was coming about more and more from from business leaders everywhere, they were just saying listen, these were witnessing trends, especially around digital adoption online shopping. That we were expecting to happen 510 years from now, we're you know, we're we're hitting those those expectations you five weeks into this pandemic, so it really caught everybody off guard. And, and basically, but nothing was, these were all trends that they were expecting. So why this was called the word acceleration was was on everybody's mind at that point was, you know, everything just starting being pulled forward. And during that panel, I sort of came out and said, Well, you know, we had these these these greats that occurred in past century we had the Great Depression, we had the great recession. And now could we look back on this period and consider it as the great acceleration. And that's where the term came from. And it was just basically reflecting on the fact that we sort of had this this this, you know, this push of the word represented five to 10 years ago. of growth and a lot of these categories that was imposed on us and knowing that it wasn't going to be forever, but it was clearly sort of a portal into the future of how we were, you know, the trends that we were forecasting already for some time. 

Daniel Johnson  05:14
Right. And then what what were some of those trends that kind of were included in the great acceleration?

Carl Boutet  05:19
Ecommerce, right. So the shift to online, pure online buying, which, you know, was really here in Canada was probably depending on the category you're in, was sort of averaged out, or between 10 and 15% of our overall consumption was online, and I got pushed up to 25 30%. And in some cases, over 50 folding retailer, for instance, where all your stores were shut down for a couple of months, then obviously, it really it really went to online. But I think more importantly, what what I'm trying to communicate around a great acceleration is not that did not purely the shift of ecommerce, but just the ship of digital adoption in general and the influences. It's had around even things like curbside pickup where people were Yes, were buying online or picking up in store. And, and appointment booking and virtual, sort of FaceTime sessions, or what we call live shopping. So all these other trends that kind of came on top of that, but yes, at the core, you commerce was sort of the main one that that pushed the others to the forefront. And it was, it was these are very indicative. But I mean, the idea of where people think well, then this was this, the exact is the great acceleration, the end of physical retail, and I push back and say, It's actually probably the biggest opportunity for physical retail. And that's really what I'm trying to stress.

Daniel Johnson  06:48
So this idea of a great acceleration, or the idea that COVID-19 accelerated trends in the retail industry is something of a consensus for retail analysts like Carl. And it makes complete sense when you think about it, that things like E commerce, which everyone knew would take over became essential parts of every retail business in a very short period of time. One person that agrees with this is Bruce Winder, a retail analyst and author of the book retail before, during, and after COVID-19, I asked him about how the pandemic has accelerated some of the major trends in retail.

Bruce Winder  07:20
Probably the biggest trend, and there's a lot of them. And in my book, I talk about the top 80 trends sort of in my opinion, some are some are sort of larger than others, probably the biggest trend that impacted retail right now, or has been impacting even before the pandemic is the growth of E commerce, the growth of online shopping. So, you know, if you think of online shopping, kind of had a bit of a push back around 2000, you know, it's really been accelerated with the pandemic, for obvious reasons. I mean, e commerce offers you a wide assortment, it's incredibly convenient, it's safe to shop. In other words, you don't have to go in a store for obvious reasons during the pandemic. And, you know, it's just, it's just Ultra convenient. So folks, like Amazon have done a really good job in that space. But not only Amazon, other people, such as the big retailers in Canada, like the Walmart, so the Canadian tires, have sort of, you know, upped their game in that area. So ecommerce is a really big trend. And we're behind other countries. And we're sort of catching up now, you know, there's been sort of a movement. And this ties in with a number of other trends like a green trend, overall, a trend as it relates to environmental protection, environmental stewardship, sustainability.

Daniel Johnson  08:35
Bruce goes on to talk about how green trends in retail had a major push around 2007, but then kind of waned a bit during the 2008 recession, and then made a comeback and years later, he adds that he expected a similar trend to take place during the pandemic. But that green just kind of kept going despite the pandemic. And that is not just a trend that consumers look for. But it's also something that investors prioritize as well. Bruce goes on to highlight some of the other trends.

Bruce Winder  09:04
Big institutional investors are looking for companies with a you know, a sustainability program, corporate social responsibility program, that's when things get done. And that's, that's another major trend, also, digitally native brands. So we've seen brands that have sort of started online only in retail, where it used to be if you're a retailer, and you started you started sort of with a store well now a lot of brands don't do that. They've said we're starting online, that is our storefront and hey, over time, we're going to add a brick and mortar store too. So that's another one another one that's been interesting is direct to consumer DTC, etc. And that's quite an interesting situation, but it's really where brands who normally are wholesalers sell directly to consumers. And Nike was one of the first and probably the best to do that. Obviously, this this gained a lot of traction during the pandemic because A lot of stores were closed and wholesalers and brands couldn't rely on retail as much. So they said, You know what we need to keep our business going, we're going to ship directly to consumer and instead of sharing that profit with a retailer, we're going to take that profit. But we're also going to take on operational costs, in terms of picking, packing and shipping and things of that nature. And that's where the profitability issue lies. So DTC has been a major trend as well.

Daniel Johnson  10:27
One interesting thing about Bruce that you heard there is that he considers Amazon as part of the retail industry and not just an E commerce business. He thinks that the lines between retail and E commerce are blurring. But I'll let him explain that. 

Bruce Winder  10:42
Well, I think that when you think of retail, now, retail is all channels. So it used to be you think retailers, Oh, do you have a store, if you don't have a store, you're not a retailer, you're in etailer. I think that's gone. Now. I think that differentiation is gone. And now it's just retail. And retail can be whether I have a Dickey D bike that I'm selling ice creams on, or whether I have a store or whether I have a website on Shopify, you know, retail is everywhere and everything. So I include them now in retail for that reason.

Daniel Johnson  11:13
Bruce also believes that retail businesses are starting to embrace social responsibilities.

Bruce Winder  11:18
Massively important, it's a game changer. It's a table stakes. If you're not doing that, you're not going to be around soon. Because not only will consumers Baku, especially young consumers like Gen Z and, and millennials, I'm not trying to stereotype but I have to look at broad trends. But also investors, as I mentioned, you know, even even the big investment, pension funds and things one invest in you, even the big Wall Street banks won't invest in you, if you don't have a robust, you know, realistic, cost customer focused and environmental focus strategy. So it's, it's absolutely a table stake now.

Daniel Johnson  11:55
Bruce also has a really interesting perspective on where the retail industry is going. And I asked him what changes he thinks might take place over the next 10 to 20 years.

Bruce Winder  12:05
I actually have a draft of something and I won't disclose the whole thing. But I wrote sort of about 30, 40 pages last year on what I call retail 2050. And I haven't published it yet. So I've been thinking about that. I do think that you're going to continue to see technology enable our lives, you're going to see acceleration of technology, you're going to see a much greater role of robotics. And in everything we do, whether it's at the store, whether it's around our house, driving the cars, you know, autonomous, right, so you're gonna see technology and robotics and AI just play a much greater role in our lives, that's going to be probably the biggest trend, you're probably going to see a polarization that continued polarization of retail, where you really have the big folks at the top. And the tiny folks, there's a trend I talk about in my book called micro retailing. And it really means that everyone's a retailer. Everyone has a side hustle, which is selling something a service or a product, part of it is to supplement wages, which are stagnant and probably will continue to stagnate versus inflation. But people everyone will become a little merchant on the side. And folks like Shopify and Amazon are going to enable that with their marketplaces and their hosting. And so you're going to see an industry that's completely polarized, big and small, but but they'll work together. It's not going to be an adversarial relationship. And I look at people like Amazon, Amazon is not playing an adversarial relationship with small companies. They're not saying let's kill the small companies and eaten lunch. They're saying no, no, no, let's work with them. So that we can form an ecosystem. It's like a parasitic relationship. Right? That sounds horrible. But you know, it's really a sort of a symbiotic relationship between big, big animal and small animal to help each other. And I think that's one of the things that Amazon has done, and you'll see a lot more of that in the future.

Daniel Johnson  14:03
So Bruce has some really unique ideas around how retail and life as a whole might change over the next one to two decades. But in the short term, how can retail businesses compete in today's market and add value to consumers to visit a physical location who could easily just buy their items online? To answer that question, I spoke to Chris Lombardo. He's a staff writer for strategy magazine. And he also writes for media and Canada, and stimulant. Chris routinely covers the retail market. I asked Chris about experiential retail. 

Chris Lombardo  14:35
You have retail stores that were trying to fashion themselves as community hubs. So when ecommerce started to take off, like what's the point of a massive footprint retail space, you had to sort of convert that even more so during the pandemic into something tangible, something useful, and an example of that would be I think, Golf town, which, you know, I mean, you can basically I don't know, I don't golf, but you can presumably buy clubs on Amazon, I don't see why not. But they are trying to convert themselves into this hub where they have technology to analyze your swing. So they have, you know, all that kind of technological capability, but they also have professionals coming in, they have famous people coming in that they've co branded with. So it actually makes me want to go there, even though I don't golf, it seems like a fun place. So that's just another example of a place that's trying to make itself community oriented. And you have, I guess, mountain Equipment Co Op trying to do that, too. So it's not just a place where you, you know, grab your Columbia shoes, and a backpack or whatever, but it's a place where you learn about climbing and enter interface with all these different travelers and, and all these types of lifestyle oriented people. So that was your standard retail spaces that completely changed. 

Daniel Johnson  15:58
Other strategies for how retail can create value for consumers to visit a brick and mortar store come from Pietro Nenci, the Costco corporate foods Vice President. As a side note, Costco is one of my favorite stores. And spoiler, I did ask him when consumers might see in store samples returned?

Pietro Nenci  16:16
Well, our stores basically there, there's always items, as you know, we call them treasure. So when you come into a Costco, there's always something new, probably not online yet, or our location. There's the guy, that is a big feature, our members are using the service a lot. We have also ancillary services like pharmacy, etc. Optical, so there's a lot of other services that the members have access into at Costco that they don't have online. So for us, it's the overall package. Price, when you look at the business, we have to be good and store we have to be strong online, we have to have good other services we call them. And ultimately, if we do all that, and we are able to show value, then the members are happy, they buy to come often and they renew at a good rate. So this is this is what we basically, that's our report card our our membership renewal. 

Daniel Johnson  17:22
Right. And so one of the things that I think of when I think of going to Costco is samples. Have you guys brought those back yet since the pandemic? Or is that something you guys are looking to do in the future? 

Pietro Nenci  17:34
No, we brought them back but in a smaller way. What we do now we put we give full sample and tell the member please consume at home. We put example chips, eight or 10 chips in a little back sealed, consume at home, it's working well. The ones that we cannot give an item to the member to to bring at home, we put a sample of what it could look like and call it a talking them. But our goal is to come back to what we used to do cooking demos, giving samples abundance of samples, we want the members to have that experience. And for us to be honest, it's a great marketing tool for vendors to to showcase their items into a Costco demo program. If you talk to any member or most of our members, they're going to say what you prefer the most possible. There's a value, of course, the assortment. But the demos are always spotted the top three, what our members are looking for. So yesterday question, as soon as we can. We'll start and we'll do what we do best.

Daniel Johnson  18:55
In addition to in store samples, Pietro also spoke about Costcos future outlook, and how current supply bottlenecks may impact the business.

Pietro Nenci  19:04
The brick and mortar will remain for us. For us, we we believe that brick and mortar will be the foundation of our company will continue. It's the best way that we can operate cannot undermine the.com.ca business. We have to be we say to ourselves, we have to be as good as what we offer to our member in store online. So both will be hand in hand. It has to be on obsession of hours every day to be the best. That I don't really know is when and I think it's temporary. Now open is all this logistic issues that we're living living with the containers with the logistics, the freight, inflation, and of course it's cyclical. But what we're living today is the is a bit more aggressive that we ever expected and ever seen before. So, and I know that's not your 10, 20 years that you were looking for but the next three to five years, that's worrisome if I look more long term international will play a big part of our increase.

Daniel Johnson  20:22
Large retailers like Costco can offer a great future perspective on business operations. Other important perspectives about the industry can come from landlords, many retailers rent space, sometimes to a real estate investment trusts or REITs. REITs with retail portfolios offer a great temperature check on the industry, as they are essentially betting on the future of these businesses. One of these REITs is Rio can a Canadian REIT with over 214 properties, including my own frequent shopping destination, the Yonge and Eglinton center. All of its portfolio is in Canada. If anyone knows Canadian retail, it's them. They have a serious amount of skin in the game. I caught up with Rio can CEO Jonathan Gitlin to ask him about the retail market, including Rio Cannes focus on mixed use development properties, or properties with both residential and retail tenants in one building.

Jonathan Gitlin  21:17
Well, a number of things, but what I would start with is the fact that we have in our portfolio. I mean, we've been in business for 27 years, right. So we've amassed a portfolio of properties, that when we bought them, we bought them for good retail fundamentals that were really well located that penetrated neighborhoods, they were typically on Main Streets and really good intersections that, again, had great visibility, which was paramount for our retailers. Well, it turns out that years later, that these are the same attributes that make for really good mixed use developments where the city's want growth, because by and large, they're on transit. And a lot of our properties, they're, you know, they the I would say the fundamental elements of a retail property, particularly on enclosed one is that they've got very big parking fields, and not a lot of building coverage. So as you know, prudent asset manager, we took a look at this portfolio and said, Well, geez, are we really doing what it's, you know, are we really utilizing highest and best use here, and particularly when they're right on transit. And, you know, in Toronto, as you probably know, transits hard to come by so we just felt that there was more opportunity for us to get those properties entitled for this residential along with retail. And over time we've been we've been redeveloping them and really just knocking down some older retail and re instituting better, more forward looking forward thinking retail, along with residential above it. And then the second element and why it's so important to do this is because RAM can is really good at retail, and we're getting far better at residential. And when you've got an owner of a property that that is going to own both elements for a very long time as we desire to do, neither one of those uses is going to be an afterthought, they're both going to be prominent. And, you know, what you've seen in Toronto is when you have a lot of merchant developers, you know, a lot of these condo developers, they'll build retail upgrade because they have to, and then they'll forget about it. So the design of the retail won't be favorable for tenants, it won't be favorable for consumers, it's all sort of an afterthought to the residential above it, we're going to own both, you know, both assets for a very long time, the retail and the residential. So we work hard at making sure that both work they both integrated with one another. And because for us, great retail is an excellent amenity for the residential above it. And the retail is love having the residential above it because it brings in consumers so it's this really good marriage of uses. And so for us again, it just makes sense for for us to build those those really integrated uses. 

Daniel Johnson  23:52
So as you can see here, mixed use development is something of a focus for Rio can, where they look to create a reciprocal relationship between retail and residential tenants. Rio can was an early mover on mixed use developments and even launched a residential brand in 2018 named Rio can living. I asked Jonathan about Rio Cannes focus on six major markets in Canada, including major cities like Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal.

Jonathan Gitlin  24:17
Sure, it's just demographics, right? I mean, at the end of the day, we want to put our unitholders money into places where we believe is long term growth. And with the most respect to other other cities in Canada, because there are some other wonderful cities, the six that we've chosen simply have the better growth profiles, you know, with this country benefits from a very robust immigration policy, which is great. And when people come in from other countries, they tend to go to some of the larger markets as well. There's a lot of migration, not just immigration, but migration within Canada where people who have grown up in smaller markets often come to places like Toronto or Montreal or Calgary to for education. And then ultimately just plant the flag there and end up, end up staying in those cities, which leads to a significant amount of growth opportunities. And what we really do is we listen to our tenants. And when we sit down with our tenants in the beginning of each year and say, Okay, tell us about your growth ambitions for this year. You know, more often than not, what they're saying is we want more space in places like the Greater Toronto Area, or Montreal or Vancouver, then they'll be you know, then they'll say about, let's say, Saskatoon, which is, again, a great city, great community, but we're just listening to what our tenants are saying. And then when it comes to development, again, it just, you know, it doesn't pencil out to build vertical in some of those other cities. Whereas in places like Toronto, where there's a significant housing, housing crisis, as supply shortage, we feel very good about building to, to at least provide a bit of balance to that shortage. 

Daniel Johnson  25:55
Right. And then one of the other things I've heard you talk about is the importance that retail is transit accessible, does that also impact the decision to focus on those major markets where transit is more accessible in cities like Toronto? 

Jonathan Gitlin  26:08
Yeah, and I think listen where the government invests in transit is typically it follows growth, right, it follows population growth. So it stands to reason that there's a lot more transit that's been dedicated to a place like the Greater Toronto Area. And it's not just Toronto, but places like Hamilton, Oakville, Oshawa, you name it, I and we want to and we, we simply follow that infrastructure, not just because that infrastructure is being built up there. But that's also where our population is growing. And you know, along with this, this infrastructure, I mean, if you take Oshawa for it's a great example, we've owned land in North Oshawa near the 407, for quite some time. And we've started probably about three or four years ago, building residential there along with some great retail. And the reason is successful is because you know, the 407 is there. So there's a significant amount of vehicular traffic. But they've now because the 407 is there, they built up a few colleges and universities there, which has brought a tremendous amount of population growth to that area. And not just because of the students, but all the jobs that are associated with those those schools and universities. So it's sort of like our infrastructure follows population growth. And we we love those attributes. So we follow both those things and end up building there. 

Daniel Johnson  27:23
Right. And then has the COVID 19 pandemic. has that impacted the type of tenants that Rio can has? Is there more of a focus on things like grocery stores or anything like that?

Jonathan Gitlin  27:34
Hmm. Well, the pandemic definitely, you know, a bit of a curveball, and a lot of the businesses that we cater to, I mean, we were very happy before COVID to cater to experiential businesses, you know, things like gyms and movie theaters, sit down restaurants, things that were harder to be disintermediated by the Internet and E commerce. And we felt very good about that strategy. And then of course, COVID, through a major curveball, and sort of hit that strategy, right square in the nose, but it doesn't mean we're long term thinkers. So I don't think that those those strategies go away. But it did, it did curtail our views a little bit. And so we have focused on on things that that are a little more resilient. But really what we are is long term thinkers. So we're focused on I think, types of businesses that we think will will be, you know, growth oriented far beyond just the pandemic. So we're happy again, to cater to gyms and to restaurants, again, and I think that those are really growth industries that will stand the test of time. But there are certain categories that have seen weakness, not just because of the pandemic, in fact, before the pandemic, like apparel, where we are lightening our load a little bit. But again, I think that this whole notion, you know, the COVID COVID, a lot of people said, well, it accelerated the struggles of brick and mortar retail. I strongly disagree with that, Daniel, I say what it did was actually reinforced the importance of bricks and mortar retail, because it put a huge amount of pressure and stress on people to get their goods in unconventional ways. And so a lot of people were forced to whether they were used or not have things delivered to their door. And by and large, they weren't loving it. I mean, I think that there were a lot of things, the damages to packages and said theft of packages, and you know, just the whole notion of returning things. It became very unwieldy and a bit of a burden for our consumers who wanted to get control back over the consumer process. So they started I think, focusing on more of a hybrid pattern where they would you know, they would order things online to pick them up in store so they can see them they can control the process. And I think that really brought to light the the importance of brick and mortar retail, because what it serves is this exceptional facilitation of last mile delivery that has penetrated these neighborhoods. I mean, if you look at our demographic profile, it's remarkable. We've got, you know, over 300,000 people living within a five kilometer radius of our average property, and a household income of over 125 grand in that same average radius. So that, you know, retail just don't want to give up on that. In fact, they want to emphasize the importance of those, what I call facilitation centers, right in the middle of these properties. So regardless of what kind of tenants were catered towards, there's a huge amount of demand. And I think it flies in the face of the popular narrative out there. But there's a huge amount of demand for those while penetrating spaces.

Daniel Johnson  30:36
Did you catch that? Jonathan pushes back pretty heavily on the idea of a great acceleration. Jonathan also has some interesting ideas on the future of retail. And I asked him to paint a picture of how retail may change in the next one or two decades.

Jonathan Gitlin  30:51
I'm going to paint the picture for you by pointing to that which a lot of you wouldn't know what it is. But that's actually a picture of the well, which is our 80 acre site in downtown Toronto, which has over 3.1 million square feet of mixed use property, it's got residential, it's got office, and it has retail, and the type of retail that is that is urban, enlightened, enlightenment, if you want to call it that, you know, it's a it's an open air environment. But it does have like a cover from the elements. But the type of retail that we're going to have, there's predominantly restaurant based entertainment based, gym based physical fitness space, along with this great open air marketplace, which will have a number of smaller purveyors of fresh and prepared foods, which I think will cater unbelievably to that downtown West neighborhood. So to me, that is that is like great urban retail. But then on the flip side, I don't want to forget or under emphasize what is still critical to the retail environment. And that is a good solid, open air suburban shopping center. I mean, these things have not lost their luster or their demand. And so for us the future of retail in that regard is simplicity. It's a great grocery anchored shopping center with other necessity based uses that accompany it. And I think those things are going to be well fortified for the future. Thankfully, Rio can owns a number of them, and we don't expect to lighten our load in that regard. So I think you're going to have when it's an urban environment, you're going to have a lot more mixed use, like the well. And in a suburban environment, I think you're going to have a classic opener shopping center, which will show some changes don't get me wrong, there are going to be changes to those open their shopping centers. You know, as I said before, a lot of our tenants are utilizing this clicking collect model. So we're going to have a bit of a different drive aisle for to cater to that we're gonna have different signage to cater to that. And there might be some different uses within those shopping centers, but they're there for the long haul.

Daniel Johnson  32:50
So that was Jonathan's colorful way of projecting the future of retail and using the picture hanging in his office as an example. The painting is a picture of the well construction site. In many ways the well encapsulates a lot of the things he speaks about. It's situated in one of Canada's major markets and is transit accessible. It's a mixed use development with an interdependent ecosystem of retail and residential tenants. The retail side of the development attracts the residents and the residents attract to retail businesses. However, despite predictions the future of retail is like the future of any industry. It remains to be seen. Time will tell how will compete with or adopt ecommerce principles and to what extent ecommerce and retail will remain separate industries or merge into one time will also tell to what extent supply chain problems will hurt the industry. Also remains to be seen is if a great acceleration will have lasting effects on the industry or not. 

Clip  33:56
Devin?

Afua Mfodwo  34:22
This episode of unraveled was produced by Daniel Johnson. Our associate producer is Talha Hashmani and our executive producer is Elena De Luigi. Special thanks to John Powers for composing our theme music, and Ben Shelley for creating our podcast artwork. Our professor is Amanda Cupido and special thanks to Lindsay Hanna and Angela Glover.








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