RELIGION
Tue, 12/21 2:11PM • 21:57
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
religion, psychology, feeling, people, religious, life, spiritual, spirituality, unitarian universalism, god, interested, find, super, connection, stis, mental health, hiv, thought, form, psychoanalytic
SPEAKERS
Afua Mfodwo, Michelle Kennedy, Adriana Fiorante, Harrison, Clip

Afua Mfodwo  00:04
In this episode, producer Adriana Fiorante helps us understand how the future of religion may be connected to psychology, we'll be looking at how our understanding of religion and relationships will change in the future. My name is Afua Mfodwo, and this is unraveled.

Adriana Fiorante  00:32
What is God? Not in the historical sense, not in the cultural sense, but just the individual? What is God? In spiritual practices? What are people searching for? What is therapy school? When someone goes to a therapist or a psychologist or a psychiatrist? What is their end goal? There's a similar end goal between these two fields, finding peace and happiness and life one finds this or attempts to find this through spiritual means, and the other through clinical means. But is psychology really that clinical? Or are we repurposing religion as a way of self worship? Atheism is on the rise. We as a society are moving away from God and religion therapies use has only been increasing the last 30 years. But are we using psychology to fulfill our spiritual needs? Life is absurd.

Clip  01:23
Don't say that. God forgive you. There is no God. Hey,

Adriana Fiorante  01:29
not many have heard of Unitarian Universalism, a relatively new religion. Unitarian Universalism is arguably where the future of religion lies. Though it's built on a Christian foundation. It's made notable steps to move away from Christianity. It is post Christian. It combines elements of Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Hinduism, and even atheist philosophy in its practice. Unitarian Universalism steers away from the googoo ism that's commonly associated with religion and dives into the reality that's commonly associated with academic study. I really subscribe to Unitarian Universalism. But it wasn't a quick way to get to that point. I had to meddle around with my religion, my spirituality a lot before I got to that place. This is how I found God and how spirituality helped me with my mental health and why I think psychology is becoming a new form of religion. My name is Adriana, for those of us more sensitive this podcast does contain mention of STIs sexual assault and death. I wasn't really brought up with a religious influence, at least not religious in a spiritual sense. My parents weren't religious. My next door neighbor would have my sister and I over after school and we'd stay there. Most of the days of the week. She was Jewish, and she had a pretty big influence on me. But she was more culturally Jewish than she was spiritually Jewish. In high school, I left public school to be Correspondence School, which is essentially what we've been doing all the last year. So I was just learning from home through a company that would send me books in the mail. My family had moved to a house about 20 minutes from Lindsay called Bethany Ontario. There was no one in the hamlet we lived in who is my age, so I was extremely isolated. And I was really terrified of seeing anyone my age. So whenever I did come to Toronto to take exams, I would do everything to avoid running into other high schoolers, because everyone was so mean to me. And I was so afraid of being made fun of I had nobody to talk or text to I was completely alone completely isolated. I spent a lot of time reading and watching movies and educationally speaking, it was great. And I really got to form my own identity. But I was completely miserable. During this time. I got really into screenwriting around this time. And there was one of those little workshops where they go over screenwriting basics and how you can meet whoever to get set up and how the whole process works. I went, I met this older guy, we started talking at the time, I thought he was really great and cool. But you can guess he really wasn't great and cool. I thought we had a lot in common. And I didn't have anyone else to speak to who was interested in these things. He had his PhD in psychology, he was really passionate about it. I only really hung out with that guy once. After two months, I got really sick. My neck was super stiff, like my lymph nodes were super salt swollen. I thought it was just a cold about a month after I still had this tension in my neck and these bulbs on my lymph nodes. So I obviously googled the symptoms, and the first thing that comes up is HIV. I was convinced I had HIV. I couldn't tell my parents because they be furious at me. And I didn't want to go to a doctor because I was terrified. They tell my parents. So I started going on online forums for people who have STIs and I find this guy who was 17 his name was James. He had the unfortunately the most use from Scotland and he had the most common Scottish name in the world. So you cannot Google him. And he had AIDS. He didn't realize that he had HIV until years later and it had progressed into AIDS. We would Skype almost daily. And he had these massive rashes and sores on his body and he was super lift. And at one point he got super sick. He got briefly better. And then he stopped responding to me on everything. So no email, no Skype, no texts, nothing. And I haven't heard from him since. I don't want to say that he died because it sucks to even think really. So I was convinced that was my fate. And I was incredibly anxious and depressed. I was completely alone and develop massive anxiety about socializing, because I felt extremely gross and unclean. After reading a lot of books and watching all these movies, I got really bored and would walk alone. I question myself all the time. So why do you feel unhappy? And I'd answer something like, because I'm not around me people. And I question why is that intrinsic to your happiness? And I'd say because it's normal. And I question further. So why do you think normalcy is correct? Or the key to happiness? Like, I would keep asking why, to everything I thought, and everything everyone did. Outwardly, I had developed these huge rashes on my back and arms, I was really convinced I developed aids and I was going to die. I only wore long sleeves, even when it was warm. And I was super reclusive. So my parents sent me to a therapist. In short, it didn't work out. It was probably partially partially my fault. But by that point, I was so interested in questioning and exploring my brain that nothing that therapist said to me had much effect. I was sent to a psychiatrist after I was given antidepressants. I didn't want to take them. And when I did, it really didn't help me when I was feeling particularly down and really lonely, and suddenly I have this massive feeling of presence. I felt like I had another person inside my body who was like, Hey, what's up, it was completely non judgmental and totally safe. And this really happy feeling this overwhelming, loving, great feeling like it could fill up the earth and suddenly was super, super present in my mind, and I could communicate with this feeling as well. And it always had the right answer to everything was always the most truth. I think that this feeling really is the core of all spiritualities Anyways, after month, my mom so I had these massive rashes all over my body, and she demanded, we go to the doctor, I didn't have HIV. I was literally just freaking myself out. But you can not imagine the relief I felt like a moron. But just it felt like the weight of the world was off my back. And but as the years went by, the more I consulted that feeling and that presence, the less stress or negativity or trauma seem to get to me or have any effect on me. I had a bunch of other traumas and really went through a hellish headspace. But the more I went to this peaceful, calm space, the part of my brain that was just completely untouched, the happier I felt, and the more I could deal with issues in my physical life and problems with my men, my own mental health. I think a lot of people are introduced to religion first, and are then forced to find God through the lens of that religion. I think a lot of people take issue with religion because one, there are massive political implications to virtually every major religion. And I think a lot of people view religion as more of a force of division than anything, because of the political acts done by people in the name of that religion. Beyond that, people from within their own communities face religious abuse. If you're gay, or trans, or even a woman in a conservative community that's closely tied to a religion. It just associates that religion with pain. I think religion has an association with being the opiate of the masses, that people just think of religion as a form of controlling the lower class via guilt and imploring pacifism. When life is pointless, I experienced the opposite, in that I found this spiritual presence and I wanted to fit it into a religion for structure sake, and I still find it hard to find good religious community. And I still have used spirituality in an almost selfish way. That's, you know, completely mine.

Harrison  09:22
I father in particular was very interested in religion and spirituality, and also psychology. So very interested in Union psychology, which is another thread of my life and work, I guess, or ideas in my 20s I guess I left the United Church of Canada, I found it was just a little it was too limiting for me in terms of the doctrine and the beliefs i There were certain things that I felt, I don't know, I knew that they were metaphorical or you know, I, I knew that the Bible had been translated in certain ways which changed the meaning that often that didn't come forward and services wasn't really presented that way to two people in the church and I found that really uncomfortable. And also I was being influenced I had other influences spiritually that time, like Buddhism, for example. So I didn't know anything about Unitarian Universalism at that time, but then when I kind of stumbled on a UU congregation later on, at a time in my life, when I really wanted more religious community, I just found it was it was an amazing experience just to find a place where all of it was welcome. And I was free to explore different spiritual ideas, kind of find my own path in religion.

Adriana Fiorante  10:43
When Harrison who preaches at First Unitarian Toronto has been there since 2015, she, like many members of you, you are really invested in other people's spiritual growth, and what spiritual growth even is,

Harrison  10:56
my I guess, if I had to say a definition, it would be developing our connection with the dimension of life that is more than us as individuals. So connection with the transcendent connection with something deeper. connection with I'm using a lot of different language because different language fits for different people. Some people would say spiritual growth is about deepening in connection with God. But the way I would put it in our context, because some people don't believe in God, I would say, spiritual growth is deepening our connection to the something more however that is defined. It could be inner wisdom, could be life with a capital L. Just deepening that connection, it's really about relationship actually spiritual growth,

Adriana Fiorante  11:54
I find it really interesting how people speak about religion and how it overlaps with psychology, and even how recognize religions like you, you integrated into their practice,

Harrison  12:06
I think there is an overlap or there can be an overlap, in Union psychology in particular. So Jung's idea of the self, which he capitalized was the idea that this was something that extended beyond the individual like it's, it's within us individually. But it's also transpersonal. So actually connecting us with all of life. And there's a great mystery in that there's a sense of reverence and awe when you consider the unconscious and what comes from what comes into our life through dreams, for example. So that kind of psychology, I would say, has a deep connection with religion, because it's, you know, it's the mystical, it's opening up to opening up to the unknown.

Adriana Fiorante  13:00
All of my mental health really benefited from me having a spiritual presence that I really attended to and nurse, I don't think I'm special in that sense, or strong. If anything, I think I'm really weak. And I'm really sensitive to everything. And that's not a bad thing. But spirituality has been fundamental to my mental health. And I think others can agree. I think

Harrison  13:21
that spirituality is one aspect of our health. It's one aspect of our mental health. And actually, that it's, it's probably ignored, is often ignored, or not recognized as something that can enhance our, our health, and well being in general, that we can, we can engage in that, you know, for our own well being, even through something as simple as mindfulness meditation. I

Adriana Fiorante  13:49
think like myself, a lot of people come to religion or spirituality, when they're really in a rough spot. Like when the season changes to colder, I always feel really terrible, the first few weeks and find the more I put my brain on pause and focus on praying really intensely and locating, you know, that special part of me it really helps I like praying outside and finding other religious people online and speaking with them about it. And honestly, growing up in a Jewish community, even if I don't totally agree with a lot of the philosophies. I really love watching Jewish sermons and reading Jewish Midrash, which is like analysis of the Torah,

Harrison  14:23
very often, newcomers come to our congregation in a time of crisis. And that's how I arrived. You know, I was going through a really difficult time, we were going through a difficult time in our marriage. I really needed support. I really needed support and the thing is church doors are open church doors are also you know, this the help is available, and, and it doesn't cost anything.

Adriana Fiorante  14:49
Religion isn't really always based around a god right, Buddhist giantess, and Hindus don't believe in a God. The term religion is still hugely contested by define religion as a spiritual worship of God, this excludes paganism, Mesoamerican religions and Shinto. Even tying spirituality to religion can be flawed because some forms of shamanism and by agonism really only relates special people in a community who have the spiritual presence, the presence or connection. Regardless, with the rise of globalism and secularism, religious worship has been decreasing globally, even in Region previously very pious, and this probably will continue into the future. If you believe that some religions focus on getting to know the self and determining what the self is that religions focus is reading this off of pain in learning more about the self than therapy undeniably falls in this category. We just don't view it as spiritual like we do Christianity or other major religions because there's no God attached to it. We enter remove way view ourselves as a form of God in therapy, though not in a dramatic Old Testament way. In short psychology as a study and practice is a form of religion more review the self as God, I'm not the first person to think this. And I was someone reaffirmed on this by Paul C. Vitz. In his book, psychology is religion, the cult of self. This is a American psychologist who teaches that of Divine Mercy University and Sterling, Virginia. I tried to get in contact with him, but he's a difficult man to reach. But I did find a lot of psychology, PhDs or professors who were really interested in this subject and who studied psychology of religion really extensively. There are already religious practices that combined psychology with its worship. Reformed Judaism concerns itself heavily with psychology and how the mind fits in with spiritual worship. Protestant liberalism guided by the teachings of Slimer Acker say that the human mind is really made up of feeling, knowledge and action. In researching religion and psychology, I found the PhD graduate Michelle Kennedy at Boston University whose thesis focused on the psychology of religion.

Michelle Kennedy  16:57
In religion, you have these themes that in one way or another, determine our unconscious thought, for example, the St. Joe, you have this theme of suffering. So different religions have different interpretations of the story, but in essence, overall moral is that he went through needless suffering, but he still found that the living is a value in itself. psychoanalytic study, you look at the motivational process and structures behind wanting to survive in scenarios. It's definitely very close to spiritual thoughts. I

Adriana Fiorante  17:34
read Freud's Moses and monotheism book that criticizes the Torah and became really interested in religious interpretation. He was a very violent atheist and thought religion was stupid. His works are so often contested but still revered, even in religious studies.

Michelle Kennedy  17:49
Influence is pretty undeniable, his influence in psychoanalytic ideas, dreams, sexuality. social structures are actually extremely prevalent in academic discussion. He's one of the most, if not the most referenced scholar, even today, I don't think it's so much that his works have been discredited, but it's they're actually very insightful and influential in how we look at our minds on religion as the folly of ingrates are idiots, but he did study quite a bit on unconscious communication, which often falls into religious thought and discussion. You know, they're often part and parcel. I heard

Adriana Fiorante  18:38
from some psychology students I spoke to that they thought the opposite, that religion is actually an old form of psychology rather than psychology, a new religion,

Michelle Kennedy  18:49
that religion will ever be. And I do think it performs in some capacities as an older form of psychology. But that depends on the practices and the value systems involved in each religion. It's usually up for debate, though, it's unlikely, I'd say in our lifetime or in the the next 100 years that religion will be replaced. Religion in a psychological sphere is interested not in the practices, and rituals or beliefs, the conscious meaning

Adriana Fiorante  19:20
of it. Beyond that, I worry about the place of religion in the future, not just for myself, but for the help of others. I think that spiritual places can offer great free community help and peace to people who really need it.

Michelle Kennedy  19:34
Political and treatable perspective on the view of minds that religion often distance itself from, there are certain religions that involve itself with clinical tapes, especially newer religions. arching and recognized major religions. Don't focus on the critical approaches to mind in the same capacity. But yeah, I'd say in the West in many ways, assays. Psychology is taking over some of the space that will digital is taken. But I don't think it's as simple as psychology as a new religion. But that psychology offers something religion often missed the mark on it depends on your therapist and their education and their approach as much as it does. The religious leader and their approach.

Adriana Fiorante  20:20
I always feel a bit of embarrassment when I talk about religion when I speak about it with anyone like my friends or family or even when I interjected at work, because I feel like I look like an insane person. No one I know is religious, especially under 60. Regardless, I think God is the most important presence in my life and learning about religion has been the most important journey of my life is not taken seriously in the field of mental health, but I am a testament to its work.

Afua Mfodwo  21:17
This episode of unraveled was produced by Adriana Fiorante. I'm your host Afua Mfodwo. Our associate producer is Talha Hashmani and executive producer is Elena De Luigi. Special thanks to John Powers for composing our theme music, and Ben Shelley for creating our podcast artwork. Our professor is Amanda Cupido and special thanks to Lindsay Hanna and Angela Glover.








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