PSYCHEDELICS Tue, 12/21 6:31PM • 18:21 SUMMARY KEYWORDS psychedelics, legalized, people, cannabis, psychedelic drugs, drugs, world, lsd, mushrooms, dana, psilocybin, feel, canada, dispensaries, magic mushrooms, research, dosages, legalization, decriminalize, unraveled SPEAKERS Richard Nixon, Saad Shah, Afua Mfodwo, Justin Trudeau, Rotem Petranker, Stacey Nguyen, Dana Larsen Afua Mfodwo 00:05 In this episode of unraveled, producer Stacey Nguyen looks at the world of psychedelics and how people are approaching the legalization of recreational drugs. My name is Afua Mfodwo and this is unraveled. Stacey Nguyen 00:28 There are pivotal moments in people's lives that shape them into who they are today that might be finishing school falling in love moving out, or maybe it was their first time trying a psychedelic drug. Dana Larsen 00:42 I think that my psychedelic experiences made me like a better person, more compassionate, more empathetic. So I think I really benefited from that. Stacey Nguyen 00:51 That's Dana Larsen. He's best known for his Canadian advocacy work with the drug reform. Dana Larsen 00:56 Oh, I think that the most sort of intense psychedelic experiences I've had, were actually on Ayahuasca with Ayahuasca, you really feel like you're communicating with some other kind of just embodied intelligence. So whether that's an angel, or an alien, or some extra dimensional being or just parts of your own mind, but you definitely sort of feel like you're communicating with someone else. But I think some of that was really the most profound kind of intense experiences always very positive, very healing, and makes me want to strive more to be a better person. Stacey Nguyen 01:26 His mission to end the Global War on Drugs started 30 years ago when you tried cannabis for the first time Dana Larsen 01:33 was a Pink Floyd concert actually with my brothers and I had a few puffs off a joint and that was nice cannabis. The first time I tried it, I knew this was something for me and I really enjoyed it. And I felt that it gave me some insights and perspective on things and enhanced my creativity. And sometimes in my speeches, I'll say that the decision to try cannabis for the first time was one of the best choices I've ever made in my life. Stacey Nguyen 01:55 Ever since that first puff, Dana began actively fighting to legalize and decriminalize the use and purchase of cannabis. And three years ago on October 17 2018, he and his fellow Canadian cannabis enthusiast won that fight. Justin Trudeau 02:10 We will soon have a new system in place, one that keeps cannabis out of the hands of our kids, and keeps profits away from organized crime. Today, I'm also pleased to announce that the new recreational cannabis regime will officially come into force on October 17 of this year. Stacey Nguyen 02:29 legalizing cannabis for recreational use was a trailblazing move for Canada. We were the second country in the world and the first among the g7 to legalize this drug. With Canada's size and global standings, the world washed as we begin with the New York Times dubbed as a national experiment, which shifted our social, cultural and economic structure. After Canada legalized cannabis, this wasn't the end to Dana's activism. Today, among other changes. He's working to legalize the use of psychedelic drugs. We're talking about magic mushrooms, LSD, ecstasy, Molly, and with a ton of research being done on these drugs, some experts are even predicting that this could actually happen one day similar to cannabis. But how soon if ever might we see this happen? will it just be for medicinal use are also recreational? Should I stock up on psychedelic company stocks now? And if they are legalized will we start seeing dispensaries pop up around every block like we're seeing with weed dispensaries. Today, I'll be speaking with experts and guests to explore all of these questions, and we'll take a trip into the business of psychedelics. Now before we begin, when we're talking about psychedelics, this name is actually considered a blanket term for several different drugs like MDMA, ketamine, MPCP, which are all grouped under the dissociative drugs subcategory of psychedelics. But for the purposes of this episode, we're just going to stick to the more narrow definition of psychedelics, which are the classic hallucinogens, these are drugs like LSD, psilocybin, which is the active substance and magic mushrooms, mescaline, which is in a variety of hallucinogenic cacti, and DMT, which is the more active substance and ayahuasca like all drugs, there's a huge stigma surrounding psychedelics, and maybe that's for good reason. But it wasn't always this way. Let's start in the 40s and the 50s. During this time, research was actually being done on psychedelic drugs because of their promising impact to treat different types of mental illnesses. But then came the 60s and with this decade came a rebellious youth movement that rejected the more mainstream American way of living psychedelic drugs began playing a role in this hippie culture and resulted in substance abuse by the 70s research into psychedelic drugs were essentially abandoned as a result of the stigma surrounding these drugs particularly after 1971 When President Richard Nixon declared a war on drugs, Richard Nixon 05:03 America's public enemy number one in the United States, is drug abuse. In order to fight and defeat this enemy, it is necessary to wage a new all out offensive. Stacey Nguyen 05:17 But when all of these different people are telling you something is bad, and you shouldn't do it, it kind of makes you wonder exactly what it does. What does it feel like? And what makes magic mushrooms so different from the mushrooms I chopped up and put into my pasta, you Dana Larsen 05:32 know, it really varies by dosage as well, right. And so what I find that that with, with the mushrooms or with acid, you take the take the ingredients, and after about half an hour to 45 minutes, you start feeling an energy kind of rising within yourself. There can be visual hallucinations, but to me, it's not really about the visuals. But you know, sometimes things will seem to breathe and move. So like if you're looking at a wall. It's not necessarily super intensely, but it'll feel like it's flowing and rippling. And that's part of it. And that can be enjoyable can be a little frightening if it's too much, but normally it's a it's a pleasant experience. But what's more interesting is the emotional experience and that you often will feel like a great deal of love and acceptance and forgiveness. People often cry or feel emotionally connected. Sometimes they'll have epiphanies about themselves or other people. Stacey Nguyen 06:25 Fast forwarding to 2021. While the recreational use of psychedelic drugs are still very much illegal. Research has started back up over the last few years where various benefits have actually been shown. Rotem Petranker 06:37 If you're unwell, they can make you well, if you're well, they can make you better if you're good. They can make you great. Stacey Nguyen 06:43 That's Rotem Petranker. He's the director at the Canadian Centre for psychedelic science, and the associate director of the Psychedelic Studies Research Program at the University of Toronto. Rotem Petranker 06:54 One of the reasons I'm excited about psychedelics is because a lot of the way that medical institution thinks about mental health is that like, if there's a normal curve, like there's a curve that's like big in the middle and small on the sides, and the middle is like people who are averaging mentally healthy, we just need to move that left part that people who are unwell, we need to move them to the middle. And that's what most antidepressants, most therapy, that's what it's geared towards, we just want to make people okay, so that they can go to work. And I think that psychedelics are cool, because they can move the whole curve to the right. So if I am right about this, that's very, very exciting at the same time. The flip side to that is that I think it's really important to remember that psychedelics are chemicals, they can do things to our brains, but they can't fix our problems. Second eyes can make you more creative, we think, but they can't make you use that creativity for anything, you still have to like, do the work. And psychedelics can make you less depressed. But if your life is bad, then your life is bad. And I'm now hearing people talk about psychedelics as the end to depression. And psychedelics can't be the end to depression, because psychedelics are not the cause of depression. Stacey Nguyen 08:17 And while there's research showing that there are benefits to psychedelics, they still are at the end of the day, drugs and wrote them warns that they can be dangerous if they're abused. Rotem Petranker 08:28 So there's this concept in pharmacology called lb 50 lb as lethal dose 50. So it's the dose in which 50% of subjects die from an overdose from exposure to the substance. I don't remember off the top of my head what the LD for LSD or LD 50 For LSD or psilocybin are, but it's something like I think you would have to eat like 40 pounds of mushrooms. And you would have to consume, I don't even know maybe a kilogram of LSD, it's like, normal people cannot do that. So there's no physical risk, at least. With acute use. There are some concerns if you use it chronically. So for an extended period of time, psilocybin binds to a receptor that in other substances has been shown to cause cardiotoxicity so it can be bad for your heart. This is something that people who use psychedelics long term should keep in mind when taking large doses. Just like be in a safe environment. Set and setting are really important so need to have the right mental set. So you need to be like calm you need to feel good. Like if you're feeling anxious, if you're feeling worried, if you're in a bad mood, maybe consider waiting until you feel better. And setting so you want to be with people you like and trust. You want to be in a an environment that you feel comfortable in It's like maybe like sex, it should be something that we take pretty seriously. It should be something that even if you say yes, I'm going to do it. When the time comes for you to do it, you can still say actually no, I don't want to do. Stacey Nguyen 10:15 Currently, the production sale and possession of psilocybin and psilocin are illegal in Canada. But this hasn't stopped Dana, who nevertheless set up his shop with a large storefront banner reading mushroom dispensaries across it in large, bold letters we provide. Dana Larsen 10:33 We started off just with micro doses only now we do larger dosages as well of psilocybin mushrooms. Those are the magic mushrooms. We provide micro doses and a micro doses where you just take like around a 10th of a dose or so just enough so you just barely feel it. But it can be really helpful for people dealing with PTSD, anxiety, trauma, Stacey Nguyen 10:57 you're probably wondering if Dana is selling illegal drugs? How is the shop even running? How have the police not caught on? Or how is he non Julian? I was thinking the same thing. But we actually saw very similar thing happen with cannabis before it was legal. There were weed dispensaries operating across Canada, right in front of our eyes. Dana Larsen 11:17 People ask me that all the time. How are you able to do this but the cops are gonna come get you and but really video Vancouver and in many other cities across Canada, too. They don't really send a police and all these kinds of things anymore. And there's a lot of the same legal arguments that applied to medicinal marijuana access apply to medicinal mushroom access. Vancouver, especially the city and the police have decided that raids are not a cost effective or successful way of shutting down places when the cops come in. I mean, they did used to raid marijuana dispensaries here and there. But you would get a ton of blowback and the place would just open up the next day anyway, the police are like this is not an effective use of our resources. Stacey Nguyen 11:59 After cannabis was legalized recreationally, Dana and other psychedelic enthusiasts were hoping that these hallucinogenic drugs will follow the same suit. But some experts are predicting something a bit different. Saad Shah 12:11 These are very powerful molecules. So to legalize it in that way, suggest that the public and folks are going to be very responsible about it. And that's a big responsibility to take. Right. think that there's still such a misconception misunderstanding about psychedelics that need to be addressed. And that will just come through proper education and just getting people informed about it the right way. And I think that's all in the works. And perhaps at some point down the road, it may be legal in the way that cannabis is. But till then, till we still see psychedelics as a means to cure a particular illness, as opposed to really looking at psychedelics as a way to see it as preventative care and more for wellness as opposed to illness. We're not going to see this legalized in the way that you would perhaps expect it to be or you may compare to the way cannabis was legalized. Stacey Nguyen 12:26 That's Saad Shah. He's the co founder and managing partner of nomadic fund, a venture fund that is looking to back scientists, researchers and entrepreneurs who are looking into psychedelic medicine for drug development and discovery. While mushroom fans like Dana have already set up dispensaries across Canada, sod is predicting that the incoming legalization of psychedelic drugs will likely be used solely for medicinal purposes. And I But Saad describes how he's confident in psychedelic drugs and its effectiveness in treating mental health illnesses. Saad Shah 13:47 Technically, all of these molecules are illegal, there is a decriminalization process that's abound in the US where a lot of cities and certain states have decriminalized it which means that if you get caught with psychedelics, you're not going to go to jail, but it's not legal. And so there is a movement that's coming back. And it's really being driven by the science and the science is incredibly compelling. The science behind psychedelics clearly show that they're very efficacious, they low in toxicity, and they've got high safety mechanisms. And the biggest issue that's going for us and the largest epidemic globally is mental health and is getting worse. This is this a dire situation and they need to be some form of a reprieve from it. And an ability to to just feel more comfortable inside one's head because no matter what, and where you go, and where you travel, and what you do, we're spending most of our time inside our heads and it'd be nice to make that a comfortable place to hang out. Stacey Nguyen 14:46 Today, Canadian psychedelic stocks are popping up onto the scene in the same way cannabis stocks exploded into the market before it was legalized with over 20 Psychedelic companies listed on Canadian stock exchanges. But if they're illegal Why are so many people investing their money into it now? Saad Shah 15:04 You know what we're very early innings in this, there's no revenue potential for another five or six years, we're probably going to see, you know, a psychedelic slowly start to come out for distinct uses and purposes but we're psychedelics are right now are going after a very, very large market. Right? That so the total addressable market here is huge, it's well over 350 billion, maybe even more, when you when you put all these various, you know, mental health related ailments together. Stacey Nguyen 15:39 Today, clinical trials are being done across the world on the effects of psychedelic drugs. Well, there's promising evidence that they can have major benefits. Experts are still stressing that more research needs to be done in order for it to confidently be offered as accessibly as cannabis is today. Until then, advocates like Dana are continuing to support the D stigmatization of psychedelics to promote further research and education. Dana Larsen 16:07 I like to live in a world where psychedelic therapy is widely available, people can buy mushrooms or LSD and other MDMA and things like that as adults and and encourage them to use them in a responsible way. But for that to be available for people both therapeutically and just for enjoyment, and I'd like to see an end to the persecution of drug users. I tend to believe that when more natural and milder versions are available under legalization, people tend to use those more. And we see this happening now like with cannabis being legalized, the biggest growth is is not in like eating so many edibles that you're hallucinating. It's taking CBD and smaller dosages. Because as psychedelics become more mainstream, the trend is towards micro dosing. I don't want to live in a world where there's anything's really prohibited. But I'd like to be in a world where the milder and safer forms are more accessible and people are led towards those more than they are towards the stronger concentrates. So that's the kind of world I want to live in. Stacey Nguyen 17:07 My name is Stacey Nguyen and thank you for listening to this episode on the business of psychedelics. Afua Mfodwo 17:40 This episode of unraveled was produced by Stacey Nguyen. Our associate producer is Talha Hashmani and our executive producer is Elena De Luigi. Special thanks to John Powers for composing our theme music, and Ben Shelley for creating our podcast artwork. Our professor is Amanda Cupido and special thanks to Lindsay Hanna and Angela Glover. - 1 - 00Transcribed by https://otter.ai