INDIGENOUS Wed, 12/22 12:07PM • 18:12 SUMMARY KEYWORDS indigenous, philbrick, indigenous people, academia, librarian, templates, mcleod, elders, citation styles, chung, students, cite, books, land, knowledge, support, stories, gupta, citation, question SPEAKERS Jessie Loyer, Rachel Chung, Afua Mfodwo, Dhriti Gupta, Jenny Philbrick, Alethea Ng Afua Mfodwo 00:00 How do you cite knowledge passed down orally? In this episode, producers Dhriti Gupta and Alethea Ng spoke with Indigenous scholars to understand exactly how this works, and how academia can become more inclusive to knowledge that relies on oral traditions. My name is Afua Mfodwo, and this is unraveled. Alethea Ng 00:33 How do you know what you know? For a lot of us? The answer is pretty simple. My name is Alethea Ng. And I know cows say Moo because my mom read board books to me when I was a baby. Dhriti Gupta 00:46 My name is Dhriti Gupta. And I know the Earth is round because I learned it from a textbook back in elementary school. But what happens when what you know isn't from a book for Indigenous peoples, a lot of their traditional knowledge doesn't ever get written down. Instead, it's passed down through spoken word to generations, which puts them in a difficult position when they're asked, How do you know what you know? Jenny Philbrick 01:10 My name is Jenny Philbrick and I am suckle teen and sick Wakeham. From here in BC. I am the Executive Director for fermentation for circle tea national government. Dhriti Gupta 01:23 Philbrick recently finished her master's in Indigenous business and leadership from Simon Fraser University. And before that, I completed a business degree with a major in human resources from Mount Royal University. Being a part of a university institution as an Indigenous woman was a huge step for her. Jenny Philbrick 01:40 I was an older mature student, I didn't have a lot of support from my family, a lot of them went to residential school and didn't quite understand my journey or why I wanted to live this Western Way and pursue a Western education instead of, you know, being home and being on the land. Dhriti Gupta 01:57 But she was familiar with the assumptions that as an Indigenous person, she had to be in nursing or social work to make a difference. Philbrick saw an opportunity to Indigenous business. Jenny Philbrick 02:07 I knew that Indigenous people have been doing business for 1000s of years, we have things such as the grease trail, that Indigenous people, you know, used to follow up with 1000s of kilometers and make trade for food and weapons and different types of animals. You know, commerce isn't a new thing to Indigenous people. Dhriti Gupta 02:26 So when in class, the prophets discussing the concept of how you have to really know yourself in order to know others, Philbrick ran with what she recognized to be a common threat. Jenny Philbrick 02:36 I thought, these are some of the teachings that we learned from elders, you know, instead of reading a book about humbleness and empathy and sympathy. I went to elder of Misaka. He's one of the elders in residence at Mount Royal University. And so I sat down and talked to him for a little bit and he was talking about, you know, like the seventh teachings of Indigenous people having that humility. Dhriti Gupta 02:59 Philbrick wanted to interview elders use buffalo heights and utilize the legends and stories that had been passed down through her families for generations. Jenny Philbrick 03:08 A lot of my instructors, I'd say some of them would just straight out saying no, you know, you can't cite that. There's no way of proving that. But then I had other instructors that would come in and say, Tell me more, you know, like, how do you want to use this legend of danza of the loon in your paper. Dhriti Gupta 03:31 So while some of our instructors were open to the idea, Philbrick wasn't entirely sure how to go about citing the knowledge using traditional citation systems. Jenny Philbrick 03:40 Western academia is not advanced enough to cite Indigenous knowledge, you know, our teachings or even just a legend from from an elder. Dhriti Gupta 03:55 Philbrick found herself questioning? How do you go about citing time immemorial? This question is one that lursa McLeod, proud member of the James Smith Cree Nation and third generation librarian sought to provide an answer for during her time as a liaison librarian at NorQuest College. Jenny Philbrick 04:17 Our citation styles in traditional academia know how to cite books, they know how to cite very Western academia formats of knowledge. But they really struggle with an oral teaching or somebody explaining a story of how a particular tool would be used unless you're allowed to record it or, you know, transcribe it. And that doesn't lend itself very well to organically growing relationships with communities. Dhriti Gupta 04:48 This was something McLeod had always accepted as a limitation within academia during her undergrad. But when she started her work at NorQuest, her perspective changed. Jenny Philbrick 04:58 Finally, someone rightfully so The question of what can we do anything here? Like, is there anything you can do as a librarian? No realized, well, actually, you know, maybe there is Dhriti Gupta 05:10 being the liaison for the Indigenous students Center at Northwest McCloud center to collaborate with Indigenous staff on developing citation templates for Indigenous ways of knowing, Jenny Philbrick 05:20 I kind of brought my experience as the librarian who's used to teaching citation templates and knows what normally goes into them. But then we also talked about like, what kind of pieces of relationships should be represented and what things needed to be really marked clearly as if applicable, because not everybody has those relationships. For example, noting that your treaty territory is only an if applicable part of the template because we have parts of Canada that are unceded, that don't have any connection to treaty. Dhriti Gupta 05:57 McLeod than Milan to make MLA and APA templates available through the NorQuest library citation guides and spread the word that such a resource existed. Part of this outreach included publishing a paper on the templates, and getting in touch with Purdue OWL to get it linked on their website as well. McLeod's templates are currently being used in more than 25 institutions across Canada and the US. Jenny Philbrick 06:21 I didn't really want it to be like I was a gatekeeper of this information in any way. It was something that I had helped create, but very much in the Indigenous spirit of knowledge keeping. You know, I'm more a steward for this information than the owner of it. Dhriti Gupta 06:46 While these templates are becoming more formalized now, McCloud emphasizes that they come after a long history of advocacy and groundwork on part of Indigenous scholars. Jenny Philbrick 06:55 the pieces that I created here, are not really new, there's been Indigenous scholars who have really fought to be able to include their traditional knowledges. But of course, it really hinges on them feeling academically comfortable. So having something like this, you know, it's one less thing that they have to worry about, well, you know, they're dealing with systemic racism, dealing with the academic institution not really being set up for Indigenous scholars in general, I don't want scholars to feel like how I sometimes felt during my Bachelor's, where it's almost like you have to leave your Indigenous identity at the, at the door. And it took me a long time to kind of realize I could be my whole self within Western academia. And it was just about changing Western academia to fit me a little. And citations. Dhriti Gupta 08:00 are just one part of Western academia, where McLeod would like to see change. She wants to see more community engaged learning and support. Jenny Philbrick 08:08 honestly, the templates I created, they're really an attempt to try and make it so that scholars are having more of a conversation with Indigenous communities, one of the tricky parts is looking for that continuity of support. It's always really hard. I find, when I see Indigenous programs or initiatives, or even any kind of diversity or equity program be announced, it's supported, well, it's new and shiny, and then the people with the money or the power seem to lose interest, and it just sort of withers away. And it always makes me so sad to see because that's not how you ever want to see a relationship go. You want to see a relationship that starts with really good roots and has constant you know, fostering until it flourishes. And then, you know, continued fostering even when there might be some hard times going on. Alethea Ng 09:12 Over in British Columbia, McLeod's work is starting to affect other institutions through librarians like herself. Rachel Chung, is the Indigenous engagement and subject liaison librarian at Kwantlen Polytechnic University. Rachel Chung 09:26 I do a lot of liaising with the gathering place on campus. And so that's a place where Indigenous students and non-Indigenous students can come and gather and it's a safe space. And one of the main concerns that both Indigenous faculty and students were voicing, just informally, the gathering place was that there wasn't enough space in academia given to oral sources to elder knowledge. And I thought, surely there's something we could do about this, even if it's a small piece of the puzzle. Alethea Ng 09:55 when she came across McLeod's MLA and APA citation templates realized that this was one way to elevate Indigenous oral sources. Rachel Chung 10:04 We borrowed her template from Northwest College, and then I shared it with our elder in residence that keep you from Portland First Nation means like Eden. And like Keaton took a look at it and quite liked that idea, citing like the concept. Alethea Ng 10:20 but Chung hadn't heard of anyone working on a Chicago variant of McLeod citation styles. Rachel Chung 10:25 Chicago citation, if you're not familiar, is predominantly used in the study of history, right? Which kind of seems important when you're talking about Indigenous people on this land. I sort of asked my professional colleagues, do you know if anyone has thought of or is working on a Chicago citation? Is there a reason why it hasn't been developed? And lo and behold, there was someone working on one. Alethea Ng 10:49 together with Bronwyn Mackay, a student librarian at the University of British Columbia, Chung got to work on adapting McLeod's templates to the Chicago citation style. Chung believes librarianship is just one part in the bigger scheme of removing colonialism, effects from academia as a whole. Rachel Chung 11:08 Were one component obviously. So in within KPU, there's an overall framework for Indigenisation and decolonization. And the library is a subset of that. We have our own landmarks, if you will, on how to how to contribute to decolonization and Indigenisation. But I think a lot of the work that we do can impact the broader academia. Alethea Ng 11:35 For instance, Chung is in the process of building a collection of books by Indigenous writers. She says this is one way that librarians can uplift Indigenous voices in higher education. Rachel Chung 11:46 So one of the things I really push for when talking with faculty when talking with students is use Indigenous voices in your work, whether it's your research, whether it's your course syllabi, don't have books that talk about Indigenous people use actual Indigenous people's voices. Alethea Ng 12:02 Chung says Even something as seemingly small as a 30 word citation helps in the process of decolonizing academia. Rachel Chung 12:10 every time a person gets cited, you know, their there's their writing or publication is seen as more valuable in an academic perspective, right. And so by making sure that those voices are being heard, shared, redistributed, you know, we're helping that process along. Alethea Ng 12:31 At the University of Alberta, students in an Indigenous librarianship class had the rare privilege of having one of their lectures go mildly viral. The lecture in question is unconventional 36 seconds tick tock video post by user at Indigenous librarian. Jessie Loyer 12:49 citation styles like MLA or APA aren't sophisticated enough to handle Indigenous knowledge. Alethea Ng 12:56 Jessie lawyer, the librarian behind the Tick Tock talks directly to the camera wearing a dark blue tarp and earrings made of resin and porcupine quills. Jessie Loyer 13:05 To combat this arratia Larissa McLeod, librarian from James Smith Cree Nation developed a series of templates to help our knowledge be understood as, as valid as books or articles. Alethea Ng 13:17 Lawyer created the video for her class hoping to get her lecture point across without boring them. Jessie Loyer 13:23 I truly thought that, you know, 18 students in my class plus maybe like a couple other nerds would find them other than, you know, library students taking this as a class about who, who really is, is interested in this. But yeah, apparently more people are interested in it than I would have thought. Yeah, Alethea Ng 13:42 lawyers tick tock now has over 77,000 likes, Jessie Loyer 13:46 the internet is full of nerds. So it was it was kind of lovely to see. Alethea Ng 13:51 For lawyer citation styles and academia are a good starting point for combating the erasure of Indigenous knowledge, especially for non-Indigenous people. She says the process of decolonizing academia starts with becoming aware of issues that affect Indigenous communities. Jessie Loyer 14:06 Even the process of learning through this stuff, it can feel really emancipatory it can feel exciting, you feel like oh my gosh, like my brain is on fire. It's so exciting. But that that's the start of the word. Right? What we need to do next is think about action. Alethea Ng 14:23 It's not enough to just learn about decolonization. The question then is, what do we do about it? Take for instance, the land back movement. It's a long standing campaign that seeks to put land back into the hands of the Indigenous people who belong to that land. What do we do after we've become aware of this issue? Jessie Loyer 14:43 Then we have to put that into action. We have to say, alright, what does that look like? You know, sometimes that looks like supporting, paying rent initiatives like they have in Seattle where you can pay rent if you live in Seattle, to Indigenous communities, sometimes that looks like you know, supporting land back tivities that are happening. And sometimes that looks like just giving money, right? It's like a lot of these things are underfunded so we can put our money towards that. Dhriti Gupta 15:10 Academia is only one area where Indigenous peoples have had to fight to make themselves seen on their own terms within larger Western institutions. As director of her nation's government, Philbrick is leading a team of 150 to restructure and make their own government. Jenny Philbrick 15:26 we are one of the only nations that have rights entitled to our own land. And we had to fight for that we had to prove our own our own laws that we had our own laws and rules and regulations before Westerners came here. And that's that's what helped us win our land and title, but it wasn't easy trying to prove that in the Western world, something that we already knew, but we did it. Dhriti Gupta 15:54 In 2014, the Supreme Court of Canada granted a declaration of Aboriginal title to the sylco teen and a historic ruling. Part of the trial heard from elders who went to court and shared their stories, Jenny Philbrick 16:06 you know, some of them were in their 70s 80s 90s some of them don't speak English. And they were there but translators in the Supreme Court, sharing their stories and legends. But according to our elders, there's only certain stories that can be tell told certain times of the year, and certain times of the day, and the Supreme Court of Canada actually first time, I think, I believe that they accommodated that and they, they had the court hearings in the evenings so that the elders could tell their story and follow proper protocol. Dhriti Gupta 16:38 regardless of the setting or the institution. Philbrick says the recognition and respect of Indigenous knowledge is essential. Jenny Philbrick 16:46 It really is important for you know, not just academia, but government and business to acknowledge that that Indigenous knowledge even though it's not written down on a piece of paper, or in a book, you know, we're bringing back our, our stories and our traditions and our culture and it's not going anywhere. I think it's a privilege for people to be able to, to learn and to share and to hear what we're offering. Afua Mfodwo 17:32 This episode of unraveled was reported and produced by Alethea Ng and Dhriti Gupta. I’m your host Afua Mfodwo. Our associate producer is Talha Hashmani and our executive producer is Elena De Luigi. Special thanks to John Powers for composing our theme music, and Ben Shelley for creating our podcast artwork. Our professor is Amanda Cupido and special thanks to Lindsay Hanna and Angela Glover. - 1 - 00Transcribed by https://otter.ai