0:07  
Welcome to the Way We Look, where we talk about how society shapes how we view others and ourselves. We are your hosts, I'm Shakir Rimzy

0:15  
I'm Aidan Ly.

0:16  
I'm Tiffany Mongu

0:18  
Aaliyah Harris 

0:19  
Today we have four stories each produced by the four of us here. All the stories at first glance don't appear to be connected. By changing the way we look at things, we can find out that they all revolve around themes of community identity, and belonging. Questions about how do we belong? And how do we make sense of that belonging are pertinent. And it doesn't matter if it's within the lens of the individual community, or even a country. We begin today with a look at the individual here is introducing his first feature, Aiden Ly.

0:48  
Hi there. So I think we're just going to start off our first feature. And I did a lot of work with social media and beauty people in the industry. And I feel like a lot of the work that we do is so much on how we look. And over the years plastic surgery has really been on the rise, especially with teens and young people because of the strive for perfection. I just kind of want to start off by saying like rhinoplasty is one of the most popular procedures to get done, and can cost anywhere between like seven to eight grand in Canada. That is like a year of school for some people, or something like lip injections can cost up to $500 to $800 depending on where you go. But what do these procedures really give people? I sat down with two girls who talked about their lives before and after their surgery.

1:46  
Hi, my name is Sohina Dylan. I am 20 years old, and I am a third year. Can you see all these students at York University. I also work for a company called 360 kids. They have an after school program and I am the program assistant for this company. 

2:05  
Hi, my name is Hannah Wing and I'm 22 years old. I go to Rock University. I'm a full time student. I also work part time at michael kors.

2:19  
So basically growing up I was an athlete and I played a lot of sports, including basketball, soccer, tennis, volleyball, hockey. Until beginning of high school, I started playing sports more intensely. And I got hit in the face multiple times and over the years, I developed a bump on my nose which I did not like at all I thought it was very prominent.

2:47  
Yes, I used to be really insecure about my nose like I hated it but then over time I grew to really accept it. I just noticed growing up especially in the super like white area like Caucasian population everyone would always like they have someone you know all the Asian noses typical because it's different spot there's no break. So like I always know something like wow, my lips are I mean my nose is different from theirs it's like and then you and then in the media you see like the perfect nose all this stuff. If I had the option and the money to do that I would. 

3:17  
For about five years I tried convincing my parents to let me get a nose job. Being Indian and being brown I, it's very hard to tell family members this because they don't see it as they don't see it as important or natural when we get these kind of procedures. You know, I'll pay for myself even though they did help me out a little bit. But it did take a while for them to realize that you know what, like this, I guess Sohina's nose knows does bother her a lot and if if it makes her feel better about herself by getting it done, then we're gonna you know, go ahead with the procedure.

3:32  
They basically put me under anaesthetic, I was out for about an hour the whole surgery took about an hour. And when I woke up, I was in a lot of pain and my nose was in a lot of pain. I felt like somebody punched me in the nose with a brick. I had a lot of help from my parents, especially my mom. I did not go to school for a week. She didn't she did not go to work for a week. She stayed home with me was very difficult for me to walk around. So the second cosmetic procedure that I got was lip augmentation and that was in November of the same year. And I want the same doctor and I explained to them that you know what, like my lips are not that thin but I feel like with my new nose getting lip fillers would look a lot better, especially after seeing all my friends get it.

5:02  
Yes, c uz that's what I started to overdrawing. I would say, almost two years ago, I decided to start getting lip fillers. And I think over the two years I've accumulated over I wouldn't say almost four and a half millimeters of lip filler like syringes. So wait, I think that would be four millimeters of syringe syringes or of lip filler of two different brands. And I've tried two different injectors over the two years, because there was a time where I literally got out of control. And I like they were so big, because like, it's just addicting to do because I think what people like is change, like they like they love to see change. You know what I mean? Like when people go to gym, they want to change immediately. So it's just like, when you first did it, you're like, wow, like you're obsessed. And then you do it again, and again and again, and it got too big. So I never really actually want to get my lips set at all. But then I guess when I got older, the trend shifted a lot, especially with Kylie Jenner's era of getting lip fillers, like, everyone started getting it. And then that was like the societal norm like nice, like big, juicy lips. And then that's what, that's what I guess that was the trigger to make me go. I think at the time growing up, you're so influenced by everything around you, you want to strive to be perfect and all this other stuff.

6:15  
I feel that once I have gotten these procedures done, I feel a lot better about my physical features that I don't need to cover it all up with makeup. I don't mind showing my side profile anymore. I don't need to over line my lips are used any lip pumping tools, which is two of the biggest reasons why I did get these procedures done. And I feel a lot better about myself. These cosmetic procedures are not meant to change your face. I feel that if you get them done properly, and by the right doctor, that can definitely enhance your beauty or enhance whatever you don't like about your face, not completely changed them, which I think is so important when getting anything done. 

7:02  
That's true. When people are like it's for happiness, it's actually not for happiness, it's to enhance and add to your happiness. But it's not going to solve, like I don't think it's going to make you it's going to change your life and make you happy person, but it will enhance your happiness. Plus the surgery is good, but it's not a miracle worker. If it's something that makes you happy, do it. If it's something that you want to fix do it, but just know that at the end of day is not going to fix your happiness, though.

7:37  
So I think we should just start off the conversation. Because I feel like we're all within that kind of age range where we're so impacted by what is around us and social media. Because I mean, our generation uses so much of it. So I just kind of want throw out a question about what do you guys think about I guess like young people trying to strive for this idea of perfection and, and what it really means for us.

8:04  
So I found it really interesting that she mentioned Kylie Jenner by name, like that was a model to aspire to I was somebody that you had to emulate. And you're getting these procedures done to the tune of thousands of dollars, because you want to look like somebody you've never met. Or look at somebody that has this large social media presence. Now as somebody who doesn't follow a lot, so like I don't even have a, like a public Instagram. If I find it a little strange, but that's that's my perspective. But you're willing to augment your body in order to emulate somebody else. So it's interesting for me and I'm not a huge fan.

8:45  
Yeah, I feel like I was thinking that when I was kind of listening to the whole Kylie Jenner idea how this is coming from someone who's young, but like a young adult. So how it kind of goes into how do younger people feel about this kind of thing when they see people like this in social media? W hat are their opinions on their own bodies, when they're still growing, and maybe they don't have all that knowledge like we do and how it affects those kind of people too. So that was interesting to hear her opinions.

9:19  
Also, just to add on that I think it's kind of like I feel like social media doesn't really speak on how bad these things could be. Like how bad plastic surgery could be in an even and I feel like the only con that's brought up is normally just like the pricing of it. Like the ranges of money that you're expected to spend on I don't know like fixing your nose or like fixing your lips or something. But it doesn't really talk about like the after side effects that a person could experience if they enhance their lips a certain way or if they enhance their noses or their their eyes and stuff actually, like I remember there was to My wife and daughter, and they got like, slandered by social media because of the way they wanted to like, I mean, sorry, of the way they upgraded their eye color through surgery. And they were just being attacked on the fact that like, you know, you're causing so much damage to your health and stuff like that. And later on even during that time, like it came on to the news that they were like, the daughter was actually facing problems and issues. I feel like the same should go for whenever someone is trying to do like plastic surgery and stuff, you should joke abo ut like their the damages that could cause. 

10:40  
In your piece, the vibe I got from it, you're fairly pro plastic surgery. You're highlighting a lot of the the benefits of it, because of the girls had very specific reasons for doing these procedures. The one with the the nose damage from sports, so just going to clarify your position on that. 

10:59  
I think, first of all, I have no particular opinion when it comes to plastic surgery, I say do it if you want to do it. If you don't, I mean, don't do it if you don't want to. I think at the end of the day, because I work within like that area, and I'm so immersed within that culture, I get it. Like people post different photos and they curate like this perfect image like I do it to like I'm guilty of it. I fix things, I clear things up and I alter the image. And I I feel like with media education, it's like everyone knows that everything is kind of fake online. But I feel like a part of us wants to believe that it's so real and we want to really buy into that fantasy. So I think I want to kind of end up on because I feel like this conversation was kind of saying that plastic surgery is a bad thing. I don't think plastic surgery is a bad thing. I just say that, if it makes someone a little bit more confident and make them feel like they can take on the world a little bit more I say go for it. And I think like that is just kind of the purpose of my story. I kind of just wanted to shed that light.

10:59  
Alright, thank you, Aidan for that future. Our second future moves from the realm of the individual to issues within the fashion industry. Joining me is Aaliyah Harris with her feature colorism in the fashion industry.

12:11  
We live in a society where image is important. When you don't fulfill the image of what mainstream beauty looks like, and you're not represented as much as other people around you. It becomes this normality to one to aspire to be something other than yourself. So altering your physical appearance can be easily done. But what about when you're programmed to feel uncomfortable within your own skin? Every day these situations occur and I wanted to look deeper into an industry that focuses highly on people's appearance. Diving into the world of fashion, I took to the streets to investigate shaders, also known as colorism among women.

12:51  
I couldn't find clothing in my nude shade. I just thought it would be a great look. It wasn't anything too deep. And when I started Googling, I couldn't find anything. And then the second part of that which is a bit deeper as I started thinking about, well, why isn't there anything in a nude shade for my color? And how can when I google new to everything is page. 

13:10  
You've heard racism and sexism, but what about shadism?  For the women involved in the world of fashion, it is a real problem. Communities are banding together to educate and change the public. I met with Nicole Lukas Richardson founder of Good Form.

13:32  
So shadism been recognized as an interracial discriminatory practice, but it's also outside of that we've seen that a lot in marketings we would see a lot of more, quote unquote, multicultural brand campaigns. But the women of colour were either Latin or light skinned black woman and lighter eyes, Hazel or a very light brown eye with a tint of blonde in the hair. Or you were seeing the very heavily pigmented black woman that was thinner. That was somewhat a glamorized version of the stereotypes of what an African woman would look like. It's not necessarily saying that one particular group of people are superior to the next it's more like within that group of people these are our ideals of beauty. I've recently started a company called Good Form a digital platform that brings apparel, makeup, accessories, in new shades for people of all colors. We want to start building a community. We like being part of the conversation around shaders and colorism and that thought process but also because we want feedback from our market. And I really wanted a company to start something that put people who have always been secondary or tertiary consumers at the forefront.

14:47  
Danica Haber spoke to me about her experiences of shadism them right before judging at a casting event. 

14:54  
I'm in FSN 706, which is the fashion event planning course at Ryerson. And I'm the styling and collections lead. I'm working with a bridal wear brand called Lovers Land, showcasing their newest bridal wear collection. Our client wants diversity, so we're looking for models of all ethnicities, all genders. As long as they're comfortable in gowns and lingerie, we want to stray away from the whole tall blonde white girl because right now no shade, but like they don't have that much diversity in there. So introducing that to them will be like a huge deal for their brand. I'm from the Philippines. In the Philippines, even though there were a lot of Marino's, which is brown girls, there was still a stigma of being lighter is better because we were westernized and like colonized for a long time. And so that kind of just stayed within that culture. Even though I was living in the Philippines basically my entire life, I still didn't feel represented. When big fashion houses are starting to hire more people of color, it obviously makes me feel good about myself.

16:07  
I am black I identify as black, African Canadian, I've experienced both sides of shade ism, I'm one of the darker ones on my mom's side of the family. So I get the don't play in the sun too long or make sure you're right where the right colors. But then on my father's side of the family I wanted the fairer ones. So then I get a lot of, oh, you don't want to date a certain type of person because they're too dark for you. I never took it as an insidious comment or hurtful comment. It was just to the people who said it's something that was ingrained in their mindset. But does it worm your way into your subconscious thinking and then consequently into your outward activity and decision making? Definitely. And I've made an effort in the last few years, amongst other isms that I've been faced with to be mindful of the decisions that I'm making and the thoughts and feelings that feed into those decisions.

17:00  
Tokenism is spoken among many fashionistas. I asked Nicole and Danica, is there enough diversity in high end fashion?

17:08  
In terms of high end brands? No. I mean, there's still a bit of tokenism happening. And by that, I mean, there's the one obviously Asian there's the one obviously person of color, but the majority are still wavy, tall, white women. I think I do see more diversity overall. The unfortunate part of that diversity, particularly with women of color, it's a caricature diversity. So you see extreme hip to waist ratios, extreme lip to face with ratios, characteristics of certain women of color, for sure, that have been noted over time, but not of all women of color. It's not necessarily authentic diversity. Hopefully, it changes because tokenism is still such a huge part of the fashion industry. I think they just need to hire realistic people, they should just break down that wall of this is the type of girl that we want. This is the only type of girl that we want. If you have more diversity, you're not just targeting one type of person anymore, you're targeting more people just because they see themselves being represented. 

18:18  
Once the realization is made amongst businesses that people of color do have substantially significant purchasing dollars that they are influential in the space. I mean, black women are the number one influencers on Instagram in terms of style choices, but there's still the stereotype that you know, people of color don't have the purchasing power that people who are typically of European descent do.

18:42  
Shadeism is wrong. You need to recognize that it's time for change to stamp out the stigma and the shade of it all. In Toronto. I'm Aaliyah Harris. So yeah, opening up the conversation about shadeism. Um, what do we think? Do we think it happens in Toronto or?

19:01  
I personally, am so glad that there are more people kind of talking about it, just because that personally, I have never experienced that kind of thing. Like even looking when she was talking about how she couldn't find like the right nude garments to like, match her skin tone. Like I can only like speaking from personal experiences. I'm in like a particular skin tone category where I have never had that problem. Like I can go into any store, any makeup line, any single thing that has to do with like, that kind of color thing. And there has always been my shade. And I grew up and walked through, you know, life being like, you know, I think this is just a regular thing. I've never actually personally had to think about like, hey, like, there's color. So like, but even though you didn't experience it, do you feel like you still see it, do you? Oh, absolutely. Like I can see it from other people. And I can, like notice it when it comes to like magazines and TV and like seeing how people prefer and like publish and market a particular image. But I can never say that I have personally felt what that means.

20:20  
Yeah, I can see that. Yeah.

20:22  
The funny thing is the four of us here in this room are ethnic minorities, people of color how would you call it. I think we've all experienced that subconsciously. But I think having this discussion being brought out into the forefront in a vocabulary that we can understand in language that's universally accessible to all. And yeah, it's like that effect, once you learn about something, you see it everywhere. The same thing, once I'm informed about shadeism, then I can see instance of that in places that I don't really expect.

20:54  
I see it myself as well and the thing is, like, as Aiden was saying, like, I am black. So like, even just going into the store, and trying to find like a foundation color that would kind of like, match my skin tone. I've personally never ran into an issue where I had to, like, mix different colors to like, blend in or something. But it was actually mostly my sister, because she's kind of darker than me. So then like, even trying to find like a foundation color that would match her would be an issue. And I think beauty, like the cosmetic work. industry is kind of doing their works into it trying to make things better. But it's still not really enough, just because not everybody's, you know, meeting up to those, to the colors that they try to make for everyone. So of course, it goes beyond just foundation color. It also shows up in to like the industry and what we see on television magazines and stuff like that. So it definitely goes beyond that.

21:56  
I think this is a perfect transition to our next story. Tiffany, your story focuses on ethnic clothing and you're focusing on African entrepreneurship in a clothing company in Toronto. So why don't you take it away on story number three.

22:11  
Awesome. So I am African I originate from the Democratic Republic of Congo. And for anyone who truly knows me know, I live, I breathe and I love the Congo. And although I've never been there, at least not yet, there are so many things about that country that makes me so proud to be who I am. And the Congo molded me into the patriotic African woman I am, truly. And I feel like a lot of it lies within the culture. Because our culture is super duper rich. And when I was younger, I kind of had a hard time accepting it. Just because I thought Western culture was better and I wasn't like too exposed to it as I am right now. But then as you grow up and your your knowledge expands, and you start seeing things in a different in different lenses. So with that being said to celebrate my appreciation for African culture, I took the initiative to interview Benny Boo who's of Ghanian origin.  The goal was to represent success of Africans in the community, and as well as acknowledging the hardships we face to reach to where we go.

23:34  
The loud and annoying construction work on Eglinton West does not stop Benny Boo from keeping African divas men and children in style. Originally from Ghana, Benny has brought the vibrant and versatile African fashion into the Canadian scene, and it's received positive remarks. Benny launched her first clothing line of Afro centric modern exotic wares in 2012.

24:01  
This idea came behind the fact that she noticed the absence of ready made clothes here in Canada. She took it upon herself to incorporate this trend in Canadian fashion. She remembers beginning her business but the need to emphasize unity. Through her creativity. 

24:18  
Becoming a CEO was a simple choice for me because I like sewing and designing clothes and clothes has been my passion for a while.  So why not do something I'm passionate about and so get rewarded for it. It feels good. That's one of the perks of being an entrepreneur because then you have no limitation put on you. So if you're working for yourself, you can see the reward and you're able to create for different people designed for a wider selection of people that will enjoy your talent or your art or your creativity. So it's been good. Back home we make our own clothes so you have the flexibility to design your own wearable clothes, so you choose what you like what you don't like. Whereby, instead of being limited here, you're limited to whatever you can find in the store. So, if you don't like, that's all that is available, you have no other choice. I've had the option going to tell us back home to design my own clothes and they make it for me and stuff like that. So that's where it all came from. I enjoyed that process.

25:25  
It is based on her phenomenal out of the box creativity, and designs that helped her successfully create clothing for all shapes, sizes, ages and sexes. She draws her inspiration from her daily surroundings and interactions with different people.

25:41  
I mostly create stuff that a versatile because I think about myself in my spare time while I would like to wear and I like clothing that are versatile. So I can have a T shirt that can turn into a dress. I can have a dress that can turn into like a long sleeve dress, that I can change into a halter dress. With my design is mostly Afro centric and North York is predominantly like on Eglinton it's predominantly black. So then when you set up your business, you have to look out for the demographics. So I did my research, I found out this is the good place for my business. Even though I live in North York and I work in the UK I travel I go around the GTA, for business or just for pleasure. And I sometimes I have the chance to travel outside of Toronto and outside of Canada. So I get inspired a lot when I travel and I see different people, different environment, different things. And just everybody with the styles and the streets wears.

26:45  
At a young age. Benny's always admired African fashion in the art of seen stressing. Determination and hard work are factors that have led her far enough to have a passion and love for what she is currently doing.

26:59  
I love sewing. Like most people was the essentialist will call me a fashion designer. But I like to called a seamstress because I love so and like someone asked me a question the other day, we're just talking and like if you win 5 million was still would you still be doing what you're doing now? And I said, yeah probably not have the same shop. But so it has been a hobby of mine since I was 12. So just a hobby turned into a business now. So regardless of why I'll still be sewing something just for the fun of it. So I love sewing.

27:32  
However, she says managing a business could get tough, as well as dealing with some customers that don't appreciate her innovations.

27:41  
My job comes with a lot of customer service to. I don't like the fact that I'm emotional about my designs. I get very emotional about my design. So if I'm creating something for someone, and they don't seem to like it, it gives me a lot of hard time. I don't know it gives, I feel emotional about it is meant to making clothes for people that loves it. So I have to see the love. I have to see that you like it and you appreciate it. If not, then I'm struggling to make it to be perfect. And that's been a problem of my profession is not always good, it's never good. I could have 10 people be happy and that one person that is not happens what is going to ruin my day.

28:28  
Benny has also had the occasion to design clothing for celebrities, and does not regret her experience. She has been highly recognized for her work. Her numerous successes such as winning Best designer for the African Entertainment Awards in 2013. As well as being the official designer for Planet Africa TV, and magazine awards and Gala. Also, she continues to create diverse outfits for the honorable Jean Augustine. Tracy Melchor, Carolyn Purcell, and founder of the Luminescence emagazine. May Marie Douesesowa. 

29:05  
 I used to design a lot for African celebrities that come from overseas to perform here. So when I started, it was a good exposure and I had a lot of fun with that. So then, I guess it goes to different events meets different people. So that was good. And in Canada, Toronto I've had quite a few call them celebrities were my design. So that's been good. It's been good for the business and it's been good for my confidence in terms of fashion. It's a very competitive industry. So if you have celebrities loving your work or loving your ads, definitely a bonus.

29:47  
Penny will continue to represent her heritage through the fashion industry as it continues to flourish. Wishing you all the best Boss Lady.

29:56  
With our new collection is gonna be a wide varieties are trying to diversify. So it's not just limited to, but I do have the races and cultures where my design now but I wanted on a broader skills. So we can have the diversifying on the future of it.

30:23  
So yeah, this was really fun to do, I got to know more about because she's personally, my seamstress. She designs clothes for me as well. And it's just a nice feeling seeing that, you know, an African woman is kind of just taking that initiative to create business and to attract people in her community and so forth. So how do you guys feel about success in the community in in marginalized communities, especially.

30:52  
I love it. I don't know about you guys. But I follow so much of like, Asian Twitter and Black Twitter and everything, like all those sort of things on Instagram. And I love it when people start to rally behind, like certain groups and start to support like, local kiosks, local stores, local seamstresses. And all of those people within those communities to really bring that like rich culture to our everyday lives. And just being a person of color, I love seeing that and I hope that it kind of becomes like on a, I hope, it just kind of becomes like a bigger scale. Because, like, I've noticed so many, like, as of recently, a lot of the designer stores like Gucci and h&m are having so much, right the controversial stuff. And I just can't, I'm just so excited when when people kind of rally behind these communities, because I feel like it's, it's going to become such a great thing.

31:52  
So personally, my girlfriend's from Nigeria. And she tells me, she tells me like she has, like, unless somebody is bringing over clothes from Nigeria, that she has barely no traditional clothing. It's very hard to find. It's only like, there's a few retailers out there. And, like in Montreal, there's more, but in Toronto, there's a very

32:16  
It's hard finding them like it's extremely hard. 

32:20  
Yeah, so she tells me she has stuff like flown in all the time or whatever Auntie or uncle is coming over. 

32:27  
See, you think that that would kind of wake up people in the fashion industry and that no, like, there's obviously a market for these kind of things. And you think that that would kind of spur something on but definitely I agree with them all the view, like diversity is just so essential, like filling that need for minorities. It's just so important for the culture. And to just provide this kind of area of fashion that suits everyone is available for everyone.

32:57  
Just to add on to what Shakira was saying, like, my mom literally has, like, so much African fabric bought, like at home. And she just has a really hard time finding the right seamstress to kind of like, tailor the right clothing for her. So she always like whenever someone's going back home, like she'll give a piece of fabric and be like and take the measurements and stuff. And then the person back home would do it. But then when her friend comes back with the fabric, it probably like it doesn't sometimes fit her or doesn't meet up to her expectations. So yeah, like, I feel like just expanding this kind of industry, like around the community and around people, for them for it to be accessible for them is so important. And just to create that sense, an environment of diversity is also really needed. Around here.

33:46  
Yeah. And I think, all coming off of the point about like people sending stuff back home, like I have to do that so often. Like in the Vietnamese communities, we have like these garments called Aoi eyes, and they're mostly done out of like silk fabrics. And so much of the time we're sending it back to Vietnam, trying to get our measurements and most of the time, we are not talking to the seamstresses. Like we have to basically tell someone like what we're looking for, and hope that they can convey it to that person who is making our clothes and there's been so many times where I've gotten fabrics brought over and I was like, this is not what I signed up for boo.

34:28  
You only wear those clothings on like special occasions or some things within your own ethnic community. It's very rarely but I see people wearing ethnic clothing for just day to day casual wear.

34:40  
I try to. Like Yeah, but is that because they can't find that clothing? It's maybe not a choice. Like maybe they would wear it more if there are more options for those people say all these kind of ideas.

34:52  
Okay, so with the first three stories, we took a look at themes of identity and what we do to forge an identity whether from changing yourself Changing the industry that you work in or changing the clothes that you wear. But the questions of identity and belonging take a different tone when you add violence to the mix. When you remove the sense of security that a stable society presents, we get stories that look at the same themes, albeit with a much harder edge, image, identity and politics are all intertwined in the Kashmir Valley. And in my story about photography in the Kashmir Valley. It offers a unique look into the human condition, and ultimately the quest for belonging, helping me get through this, this question through the lens of photography is Dr Arne kislenko and Nathaniel Brunt.

35:38  
In February 2019, following the suicide attack in Pulwama, Kashmir, Indian fighter jet was shot down over Pakistani occupied Kashmir airspace, sparking horizon tensions and protests around the world. Joining me is Professor Arne Kislenko from Ryerson University. He specializes in diplomatic history and international relations.

36:17  
The heart of the Kashmiri conflict are two super important nations India and Pakistan, which have had a pronounced regional political rivalry that involves many other things, not just Kashmir. It is super complicated from a local, regional and international level. It's kind of a litmus test of how complicated international affairs can be and how small countries you know seemingly remote from the mainstream can have really consequential effects.

36:47  
Nathaniel Brunt is a PhD candidate at Ryerson University, who specializes in documenting the Kashmir valley through his photo series hashtag Shaheed.

36:57  
I started working in Kashmir in the spring of 2013. My introduction to Kashmir was after I think it was something like 23 days of curfew in the valley. So people hadn't been allowed to their houses because of the political situation. So I was working there as a photographer and then over time, my work has evolved to being more academic and more archival based.

37:17  
You're best known for your work hashtag Shahid. Can tell me about why you chose that name for your project because it has a specific meaning?

37:24  
The name came out of actually a search term that I was using on the internet. Shaheed is obviously an Arabic or is used in Urdu as well as martyr. And in 2013 and 2014, a new phase of the the insurgency in Kashmir had started and many young men from the valley we're joining organizations like the Lasheed Dubai or Hizbul Majadeen and then we're fighting and almost always being killed or murdered. And I was I was following these young men on the ground as they were fighting but also through the the photos, graphs and videos that they were posting online on their social media accounts, which I was collecting and archiving. So the name hashtag Shaheed really came out of this search term. That was that was often being used as a metadata tag on the on the photographs and video that these young men were posting.

38:15  
I have with me some photos of hashtag Shaheed describe the photo for our listeners and walk through some of the context behind it.

38:26  
Yeah, this was a funeral that I was at in 2015 or 2016. I can't remember the exact year I'd have to check. This is Taleb Shaw, who was from a small village in South Kashmir. He had been killed that the evening before. He was part of a small group of Lashkreen Tubai militants. There were three of them and they've been trapped inside a building out and you can see in the foreground all the people photographing it. So this was really one of those images. During when I was doing the Shaheed project, I was looking at both the photographs that I was tracking, which were posted on social media that these people in the foreground were taking, but simultaneously also looking at it from my vantage point. I mean, what I was looking at is the way that I mean, conflict has changed in the 21st century, where now everybody has a camera.

39:12  
So can you explain how that changes the context of the conflict itself?

39:17  
A lot of the material that the documented the the conflict in the 90s was, was erased. I mean, a lot of it's been destroyed, a lot of it's been lost. So, I mean, that was a period where most Kashmiris wouldn't have had a camera that they were carrying around, and there was still it was still time when when film was was was being used. So I mean, I think one of the things that is very interesting, and I think you got to look at it in a broader context of the way that that war in general or an insurgency or wet or any sort of armed conflict is being documented in the 21st century. and now everybody has a phone. And this isn't just the war in Kashmir has been documented, but it's really a global trend. I mean, we look at wars like Syria that are in many ways being documented solely by non professionals. 

40:00  
So, how does this change the narrative?

40:02  
It's it's hard to judge in the West. I mean, for Kashmiris, I think it's there's a new generation. You have to also look at it generationally, there's now a whole generation of people in Kashmir who have grown up with the war being their childhood, I think they're really interested in the idea of being able to document what they see as history unfolding in front of them. And these scenes very much of these funerals for young men and women these were historical moments that everybody wanted to have their own photograph on their phone.

40:31  
So that's why photographs are so important. They're evocative, they can tell the story sometimes to themselves. You know, we need to point out as I do tend to Daniel and others, that by themselves, they're just photographs, they're they can be misused, they can be inappropriate. So they're not exactly, you know, substitutes for other scholarly lines of inquiry. Right? But they do serve an evocative and emotional point, which is to connect you in a sort of immediate fashion to real people that are, you know, subject to whatever forces that you're looking at. In the case of Kashmir, what I think is particularly important, is that Nathaniel's work is is positioned to answer what what ultimately is the major question in Kashmir. Which is, you know, is it is Kashmir, its own place is its own people, is it right to view them as kind of partitions, you know, provinces of one or two states? Or are they independent entities, right? They're they independent people with a distinct ethnicity, and language and so on.

41:35  
Well, I hate to bring you guys down with quite a heavy topic there.

41:39  
It's important, though.

41:40  
But I think the main connection that all of us have is this main question of identity. And with Kashmir, you have in this situation, an identity that's in flux, or an identity that's not really defined. When you look at all your all your stories, whether it's on personal identity, or trying to fit in into Western identity, or how do you bring your African identity into into the West, you have very established and defined parameters. When you look at Kashmir, and when you look at what Nathaniel is doing and trying to document Kashmir, in a sense, he's trying to forge his identity. And I don't want to pose this question to you guys. If your identity was under question, how would you respond? How would you react to it? And would you be able to, like be proud of who you are, if you don't have something that's concretely defined?

42:37  
I think the most important thing is when, in his story, he was talking about how a lot of the people didn't have like the phones back then. And that immediately kind of like, pops the idea into my mind about how now we all have the ability to share our side of the story. Like when protests Go on, or when like wars Go on, and other places of the country. I feel like when Western media kind of captures it, we it kind of it kind of antagonizes like the group of color, like the people of color within that country. But I feel like when people have access to phones and are able to tell their own stories, we kind of get a bigger and more well rounded kind of look at what's going on. So I feel like when it comes to identity and how I would personally react, it would be like how a lot of people are reacting now is to making sure that it isn't just one narrative going out there. It is just one story. It's kind of like, hey, like, I'm going to show you what my day is actually really like here.

43:40  
I think that's the big takeaway with sharing all these stories is because you have these perspectives, and you have these different outlooks that aren't real, they're on shared. And even when I'm looking at your stories, I did not know anything about colorism or not anything about shaders or more, I did not really know about struggles of African entrepreneurs.

44:01  
Exactly like that. When it comes to identity, you can never really understand an issue or something that's linked to it unless it's coming from that person. When it's coming from someone else. It's just not the same. It doesn't impact people in the same way doesn't necessarily show the story how, and it's most true in its most most truthful light. So it is really important. And I just think that when when you're looking at issues like this, then like the conversation is the most important part talking to people. If you don't talk about it, then people just assume or they just ignore the problem. So it's really important.

44:43  
Yeah, just to build on on what Aaliyah was saying, it is important for people to like for us to have conversations about this so that I mean, even if society isn't like the perfect place to be at least having these kind of conversations would try to at least walk into the of perfection kind of maybe not, I don't know. But it is definitely important just so that, you know, you could we end up avoiding assumption we end up avoiding, trying to try to, like, not understanding what other people go through, just so that like, you know, it makes it just so that society kind of just ends up being a place for everyone to belong and, and stuff like that. So yeah, having conversations about this is definitely something really important. 

45:32  
Well, I'm really glad that we were able to have this conversation today, taking four stories that didn't really seem connected from the outset, and building them together with this common theme of identity and unity and figuring out where we belong. So thank you for tuning in to The Way We Look. We hope that we've opened up the conversation into some of the issues that we've spoken out today. If you'd like to share your story or have any thoughts, let us know at a hashtag on Twitter, #thewaywe ook. I'm Shakir Rimzy. 

45:59  
I'm Aiden Lee.

46:00  
I'm Tiffany Mongo, and Emily Harris,

46:03  
and thank you for being here.

46:05  
{song} Going to be the same anymore