Unknown Speaker 0:01 Fitting in is overrated. But being the odd one out can still be very hard to cope with. This episode is narrated by Manuela Vega, and co produced by Briana-Lynn Briero. They spoke with two people who are wired differently. Often people with ADHD and autism can feel isolated, especially in school. But that doesn't mean they won't find a way to cultivate their own sense of belonging. This is Same Difference. Unknown Speaker 0:38 It was always very concrete in like the end like that I was the weirder kid in the class. And since it was like a private school like that followed you through the years is that like, Dana is a little off. Dana is a little strange, little spazzy. Sometimes, Dana's the weird kid that has to sit in the back with their like, desk turned around in their hands always on the desk, because if they don't, their teacher gets pissed at them, right? So like, that's the kind of sucks and that always also, like, makes the other kids in the class note, kids notice that stuff. And like, they don't know why that's going on. They're just like, what are you doing wrong? Honestly, I didn't even know what I was doing wrong. I was just like, okay, I guess everyone is mad at me for some reason. I don't know. Unknown Speaker 1:30 Making friends and getting good grades can be challenging for anyone. But for some students, it's even harder. Unknown Speaker 1:37 My name is Dana. I'm 23. I'm in my final year of film school at Humber College. Unknown Speaker 1:45 When Dana was in third grade, they were diagnosed with ADHD. Their mom told them two years later. Unknown Speaker 1:51 Which was weird. She was like, Oh, you have ADHD. And I was like, I didn't know what that was. And I was like, okay, cool. And I just kind of went on with my life. Until I realized that everybody kind of had an issue with it. Unknown Speaker 2:05 Dana's journey navigating schools started out with a lot of confusion, they felt different from their classmates, and they didn't know why. Unknown Speaker 2:13 When you get diagnosed, they, they give the diagnosis to all your teachers, so that they're like, aware, but like, no one really knew what, what that meant what to do about that. So they just kind of just get like, frustrated with me. And then just like, move on. Like, for example, like I had a tendency to, like play with all the I would always play with the shit that was like in my desk. And, like, my teacher would literally just like turn my desk around. And then like, keep teaching the class, stuff like that. Or like I would read under my desk a lot. So you know, same thing, or like, I really remember once that, like, I would play with my hair locks. I had like, really long hair and my teachers would always just like, one one teacher, in particular, what I was got, like, these were like these, like rubber bands. You just like keep tying my hair back and keep tying my hair back until I just stopped. But I don't think they realize that it's a little more than just, you know, being ditzy. It was there was a little more to that. And I know there were kind of like trivial things, but it all kind of like added up. Unknown Speaker 3:14 Dana hasn't been the only kid to struggle in school, social anxiety and being treated like they're unintelligent, it's pretty common for people who are neurodivergent. If you've never heard this word before, well, I probably only heard it for the first time last year. It's relatively new. Sociologist Judy Singer coined it in 1998. It's used to define anyone whose brain is wired differently. And in our neurotypical world, it often leaves people susceptible to different challenges from processing information to emotional regulation and socialization. There's definitely a lack of understanding around different learning styles and abilities, which can make it difficult for neurodivergent people to get their educational needs met. And since the current system caters to neurotypical students, accommodations have the potential to make a significant impact on people with ADHD, autism and other neurological differences. Unknown Speaker 4:11 High School literally nothing. Literally, they did nothing. They all knew. Because like that your record passes on and all your teachers have to look at it right? Or they say they do. But nothing, nothing never happened. And that sucked. It really sucked. They kind of just like, treated me like everybody else and because I didn't do well, I was a slacker. And that was literally it. And you know what, maybe I was a slacker. Maybe I was. I don't know. But like, I think that there were definitely moments where I was struggling because my needs weren't being met. Because like I was struggling because I can't sit there for five hours staring at a board. Like sometimes, like sometimes, it's not always my fault. It's about When this is some, this is how my brain works. And everyone just kind of acts like, you know, you're just stupid. Unknown Speaker 5:10 Dana said there was a separate room at school for special ed. But Dana didn't have access to it, even though they would have liked to. Unknown Speaker 5:18 It would have been nice for somebody been like, hey, you know what you're having, you're having difficulties, like, I acknowledge that. And we're not just gonna, like, act like you're just being fussy. You know, like, and that's why I always feel like it is treated like ADHD has this weird stigma about it, that it's like, oh, you're just being weird and fussy and whatever. But yeah, it was, there were a couple teachers that did like step in. And it's nice to see that, that when teachers care, they will do that personal education thing and like, try to make it better for you. But it also shouldn't have to be up to the individual teachers as well. Right, there should be some structure there to make sure that everybody gets like an equal opportunity to learn. Unknown Speaker 6:13 When post secondary came along, Dana said not much changed on the school's end.It would offer extensions of 30 minutes to an hour on tests. But the real change came from Dana realizing what did and didn't work for them. Unknown Speaker 6:28 Honestly, I ended up going to a place where I was like, observing other people and having to like literally ask them. I'm like, 21 years old, being like, how do you study because I really cared about this thing. And I realized that like, I have to figure this out. As much as I got like the formal diagnosis really early on, all that stuff, no one really gave me any tools to figure it out. They were just like, you have ADHD sucks to suck. But now that I've had, I've had time to like do my own research and come up with like these tools to make me succeed on my own time and on my own turf. I think that's what's helped a lot, you know. So also, like, the online community is super helpful. That's what changed shit. When I finally googled ADHD, it was like the sky opened up. I just wish it was like a little bit more accessible. And it wasn't always up to the people to seek it out, especially when they're really young. Because when I was really young, I wish that I had those resources. I wish that I didn't have to find out so late, that there was really no nothing wrong with me. I just needed different tools and other people. Unknown Speaker 7:47 Dana mentioned that their mom told the school about their ADHD, but they didn't feel like the school made an effort to accommodate Dana's needs. Even though neurodivergent people have the legal right to be accommodated. It's not necessarily an easy process. For Lance, it's been a long and difficult journey. His 15 year old son has autism. Unknown Speaker 8:09 It really depended on who we had. And we definitely had different teachers and principals and certs over the years. The other big aspect was that my now ex wife, Allison, we sent her back to college to become an educational assistant. And that really helped us navigate the waters of how to advocate for Logan and how to get him to advocate for himself. I would say that, without that knowledge, without her having gone to school to learn how to do that, I think we'd still be fighting with the schools all the time. Unknown Speaker 8:36 Throughout elementary to high school, Logan has received a range of accommodations. But Logan's parents had to constantly advocate for better arrangements. To name a few, Logan is allowed to work alone instead of in groups or with the teacher on assignments. He's granted deadline extensions if he needs them. And he can go into a separate room to chill, do work and take a mental reset break. Unknown Speaker 9:01 I try to adhere to the guidelines as much as possible. If I'm really really struggling Alaska, like an extension or something, but uh, I'm a little bit stubborn. According to my mom, I don't really want to ask for help as much as I should. Unknown Speaker 9:16 So there's one specific memory that I have. There was this vice principal, whose name was not this, but it was something like this. His name was Mr. Orange. And Mr. Orange is actually his last name was a colour, but it wasn't orange. So Mr. Orange was the vice principal in school and Mr. Orange you could tell was an old school probably spanked his children when he was young kind of a vice principal. Like he was he was a follow the rules do as I say. I'm going to intimidate you with my large S. So one day I came to the school after multiple times of coming to the school to pick up the boy, you know, praise him on how far he got that day and help him get ready for tomorrow. And the principal was standing there. Logan was in the room. The children had all been evacuated from the room and Logan was sitting in the room by himself. Nobody in there to help him. Nobody, you know, consoling him or asking him what they can do to help him get through this situation. And Mr. Orange standing there with their arms crossed, looking like a mean old man. Just look at me and I'm like, dude, you need to get out of here. You are not helping anything. All you're doing is making my son hide in a corner. Have you noticed which corner of the room he's in? Yeah, exactly the opposite one from the one you're in right now. Have you noticed he's hiding under a desk? Yeah, that's that's because he's intimidated and afraid of you. That's not helping. So I walk in and Logan is a funny moment he he starts throwing markers at me and you know me like a ninja. Totally straight face just kept walking forward calmly and I caught all the markers. So I catch all these markers and he starts bursting out laughing. And then the moment was over, he was able to go back to school and settle down. He just needed a reset. Unknown Speaker 10:50 Clinical social worker Karen Lynn Goslin provides therapy to families, individuals and couples. In her practice, she also sees people who have autism and ADHD. Unknown Speaker 11:02 The accommodations are meant to build on the student's strengths and to adjust to the challenges and struggles they're having. So if the uniques, like the whatever is unique for that particular student is properly identified, and there's a coordinated plan, then there's a lot of success that can come. The completion of tasks goes up, that will help facilitate better focus, better concentration, better memory, with better performance, there's better confidence. It helps students feel a sense of control before getting accommodations, Lance had Logan struggled to participate in school. Unknown Speaker 11:48 Well, there are two facets, there is the social part of things, you know, the expectations to sit still and not bother the other kids and not hum or make noises or not just stand up and leave whenever you want it to. It's not a question of manners. It's a question of you just doesn't have the wherewithal in his brain to check himself, you know, and so he needed constant reminders, and that would be frustrating and exhausting. And then he also couldn't read the emotions and feelings of other kids. He was much better with adults. When he started going to school, even JK is already a short day, it's just a half a day, for the first many months. It was every day, he would be there for about an hour. And then I'd go pick him up from school and bring him home. And it was just because every day, every single day, there was an incident. Something where he just couldn't control his anger. He couldn't control his fidgetiness. He couldn't stay on task. And when I say we did, it's not a euphemism, I mean, every day, and after, you know, five or six months, it's sort of stretched into be two hours, and then three hours, and then the full half day. And then towards the end of kindergarten start of grade one, he was finally able to go everyday all day. But and there would just be the occasional incident where we had to go and pick them up and take it from home. There'd be other incidents, for example, where the school has a lot of backs up against a wooded lot. So he would just take off into the woods and be gone. And he was fast. He couldn't, without a leash, he couldn't have kept him in one place. Unknown Speaker 13:17 Logan said started to realize his differences at a young age, it was around grade three or four. Unknown Speaker 13:22 It kind of felt like I was disconnecting from my peers. I didn't really pay attention to it much. But then I started having a lot more issues with paying attention in class. I guess I sort of drifted. I couldn't really focus on one thing at a time I had to focus on at least two. Apparently, when I was in preschool, they had to keep buying puzzles for me since I wouldn't do them over once I gotten them. I think I compared the way that I interacted with people and how sometimes I would completely misinterpret what somebody was trying to say to me. And they'd end up getting mad and asking why didn't you understand that? It was kind of weird to think I was doing all right in class and like everybody was like happy as making jokes and then all of a sudden would be like Logan, stop. Can you stop?Oh my god stop. Unknown Speaker 14:09 Logan had a hard time socializing and feeling like he belonged. Unknown Speaker 14:13 I spend a lot of time bouncing my leg or stuff like that. I used to make a lot of annoying noises with everything I could get my hands on. If I had markers at play drums, pencils, anything like that. It got to the point where I was consistently making noises throughout the day, even during Oh Canada. I guess I was always embarrassed. I didn't like I was being pointed out to me that I was making those kinds of mistakes. And it kind of just made me a little bit depressed, I would say. Unknown Speaker 14:47 From my perspective, without the appropriate accommodations, there are serious short term and long term effects. This is extremely high rates of depression, if they're not connected socially and they're ostracized or targeted or bullied, which is common with this population. Not only does it compromise their ability to learn or to feel enthusiastic about school, they just don't have the social connections. Unknown Speaker 15:21 For Dana, it wasn't just students who would single them out. It was many teachers. Unknown Speaker 15:26 It was always very concrete in like the end like that I was the weirder kid in the class. And since it was like a private school like that followed you through the years. Is that like, Dana is a little off. Dana is a little strange, little spazzy sometimes. Dana is the weird kid that has to sit in the back with their like, desk turned around in their hands always on the desk, because if they don't, their teacher gets pissed at them, right. So like, that's the kind of sucks and that always also, like, makes the other kids in the class note, kids notice that stuff. And like, they don't know why that's going on. One of the basic misconceptions is that people who have neurodivergent issues are not smart. And that it's a learning or intelligence issue, when Usually, this segment of the population is quite bright. Unknown Speaker 16:22 Like, up until almost the end of high school, I was still calling ADHD, like a learning disability and like it's not. It's, it's, well, it's categorized as a developmental disorder, which still isn't really right. Because like, because especially like ADHD, and things on like the autism spectrum, like being categorized as a disorder kind of sucks, because like, there's 7 billion people on the planet, they're not all going to be wired the same. That's ridiculous. So the idea that, you know, people whose brains work like these, they're being categorized as well, there's something wrong with them, because they don't fit into this archetype of what a brain is supposed to function like. I don't know. It's just it's, it's strange. What was the question? Unknown Speaker 17:13 Dana has a theory about why they've succeeded more in post secondary than they have in the past. Unknown Speaker 17:19 I have a theory. And this might be like, verified, it might not be not completely sure that when you're neurotypical, your head is wired by priority. But when you have ADHD, it's wired by interest. So that's why a lot of times when people with ADHD, they're forced to have to pay attention to something that they don't give a shit about it's why they don't. But the thing about post secondary, especially when something that you choose, and you really enjoy is that it is easier for you to do better in that program. Because this is something that you genuinely give a shit about. It kind of gave me back a lot of like, self worth, that maybe it wasn't just all my fault. Unknown Speaker 18:05 What would you say to someone now who has ADHD and is really struggling in school to empower them? Unknown Speaker 18:12 To empower them. You're probably a pretty interesting person, you probably are incredibly creative. There is literally nothing wrong with you. The world, unfortunately wasn't built for us. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to do things. If you really feel like you need the help. And if you feel like you're struggling, reach out as much as possible. There are resources for you. They're just kind of hidden. So like, fight fight for you to like, do well, because you deserve it as much as anybody else. And also, especially if school is the thing that's like, making you feel like you're an idiot. You're not. And there's so much life outside of school that you were made for that. It's gonna be awesome. Unknown Speaker 19:10 Oh, I think my mom's home. Well, I guess we're done. Yeah, well, we're basically done right. Yeah, we're done. Yeah. Cool. Unknown Speaker 19:22 Thanks for listening to that episode all about finding your place as a person with autism and ADHD, produced by our very own associate producer, Manuela Vega, along with Briana-Lynn Briero and of course Special thanks to our executive producer, Emily Morantz, artwork by Ben Shelley, theme music composed by John Powers. I've been your host, Gracie Brison. And of course, huge thanks to Amanda Cupido, a book more engaging than a lecture. And of course, last but not least, remember, fitting in is overrated.