Unknown Speaker 0:00 What's the connection between veganism and community? Head to one Western Toronto neighborhood, and you'll find out class culture and virtue signaling all play a role. Jasmine Rach will break it down in this episode of Same Difference. Unknown Speaker 0:41 I came across this scene three years ago walking home from work one night in October. I worked at a rowdy bar called Dog and Bear and I had just moved to the area. And this wasn't a band. It was a guy who had just sat down at a piano sitting at Queen Street, Weston Dufferin. And as he played, people started to join in and sing along. Unknown Speaker 1:15 I'm a sucker for the little things and it made me fall hard for my new neighborhood. I'm Jasmine Rach and I've lived here in Parkdale since that October three years ago. I moved here by fluke it just so happened that the first affordable apartment I found was right on Queen and Jamison and that's where most of Parkdale's does action happens. Unknown Speaker 1:48 You've probably been stuck in a traffic jam or driven past a bunch of construction. Since the first exit into the city of the Gardiner is Jamison Avenue. Maybe you can picture the basketball games or the pigeon parties that happen there. Unknown Speaker 2:09 Please don't rush for traffic. Unknown Speaker 2:14 Since I've lived here, I've learned a lot about Parkdale and there's still a lot to learn. We know what as little Tibet, as a little bit rough around the edges and as Toronto's latest hipster hub in the West End. Parkdale is also known for its community rallying power. And you've probably heard about the many protests that have happened lately. Unknown Speaker 2:32 A group of Parkdale residents is angry over back to back rent increases. They believe the companythat owns the building protesting against your landlord this morning. Now this sounds familiar, you're not mistaken back in 2017 out affordable housing, particularly here in Parkdale. Now Today is National Housing day and that is why the Parkdale are refusing to pay their rent until something's done about the poor quality of the maintenance of their units. Unknown Speaker 2:58 And two years ago parka went viral for this weird new thing that had popped up called vegandale, a group of four businesses that got a lot of attention because of what people have called moral messaging. The words not your mother, not your milk headline their vegan ice cream shops menu, and the vegandale brewery offers morality on tap with a blindfolded Lady Liberty holding the scales of justice on every beer bottle and glass. They also have imaging on their website with a reimagined Parkdale strip featuring only vegandale shops and a street sign that reads vegan Dell. And when they announced the vegandale Food Festival, they said since they couldn't be contained to one city block, they're packing up and taken over the world Unknown Speaker 3:36 enjoying this new vegan brewery in Parkdale today. This is one of three new vegan places opening up in this neighborhood. But while businesses are booming, there's a growing backlash against the vegan movement in this community. In a short walk through the neighborhood the name Vegandale appears more than Kirkdale. Unknown Speaker 3:55 This isn't an issue of veganism versus any other dietary choice. It's an issue of coopting the spirit and the name of a community in order to make money. We're not rebranding Parkdale. What we are when we say Vegandale, we're just referencing our locations. We're not referencing Parkdale. Parkdale will always be Parkdale. Parkdale is a great neighborhood and final. It's vibrant. It's diverse. It's perfect. Unknown Speaker 4:20 That's Helmick, Vincent DePaul. He's the owner of the four businesses in Parkdale that make up Vegandale. Hello Nick is a refugee who actually grew up on Earls Court Avenue, just north of Parkdale. I thought I'd track him down to rehash the all the beef that Vegandale was facing. That's the first of a few upcoming puns. So apologies in advance. I wanted to ask him if he thinks Vegandale belongs in Parkdale. I had read scores of articles and interviews online, but that clip that you just heard was the only place where I found him. The argument is so one sided and surely he must have had more to say. And boy, I was right. This guy was intimidating before I even had his contacted I sent a nervous call out to an unspecific Vegandale media rep email address, and I got a quick response from Helen x communications director named Jenna. And she told me that he would need to do a pre screening phone call before the interview. She also forwarded me a paragraph that he had written in response. This is part of what is said. The narrative of belonging to the community is rooted in age old racist narratives. Immigrant business owners should not seek a sense of belonging or partake in a stereotypical narrative set forth by a predominantly white media and by white people. They should judge their success not by how they belong in the community, but rather by how profitable they are. Any business owner that tells you they don't want more money is either lying to you or lying to themselves. Unknown Speaker 5:47 Woah, I hadn't even asked him a question yet. And did he just tell me the whole concept for my entire episode is rooted in racism. Now I'm seriously nervous for our call. And so I prepare this long list of questions just in case. I make a makeshift studio in my room. And Helenick joined our zoom call the very minute it began. But it only took one more minute for him to say, off the record conversation, right. Unknown Speaker 6:13 We talked for an hour and nine minutes, and I couldn't use any of it. He also asked me who would be interviewing him and how many white people are on my podcast team. He refused to be interviewed by a white person at all, and I've never been so thankful to be half Indian. It set the scene for a conversation that would really be about race. And that wasn't exactly my plan. But that's definitely how it played out. Unknown Speaker 6:37 I think Parkdale is very interesting. There's a lot of conversation around Parkdale. If you look at the latest government statistics, I think it says it's about 50% visible minorities, and 50% whites. And I think the only thing both of those groups I think have in common is that most of them tend to be the working class. Unknown Speaker 6:59 As I said, Helenick focuses on race right away and race remains at the root of our conversation. Although I do think that it might not have been the focus of the campaign against Vegandale. Unfortunately, it was pretty much the only focus of our 81 minute talk. Unknown Speaker 7:15 One of the organizations that have been there for decades are still being run by white people. And I find that problematic because no matter how much white people want to learn about multiculturalism or immigrants are visible minorities, white people don't have the lived experience of being a minority. First off, they had a community forum and I look at the pictures or videos, it is like 80-90% white, of course it is white people getting together. And you know, they actually voted white people. Unknown Speaker 7:47 Back in 2018. a forum was held in Parkdale and people voted on a list of demands they made for Helenick to adjust the way that he conducts business. Unknown Speaker 7:56 And then but the problem is they said, Hey, your moral messaging is offensive to the people in the community to especially to the cultural people in the community, and the communities of colour and whatnot. What I hear is that are you then saying people of colour minorities and Black people cannot comprehend a more a message of morality? If what is wrong to animals? Unknown Speaker 8:18 What amount is talking about here is for him to remove all moral imperative messaging. Here's part of what it said courtesy of my fellow Parkdalian Emma Druckman. This moral imperative excludes resident voices, community based organizations and interfaith groups that have been organizing around community principles that guide local coalition building and social justice work. This moral imperative is currently allowing people who are economically motivated to discuss the exploitation of animals while dismissing this systematic. Unknown Speaker 8:47 Okay, so it might be a little wordy, feel free to go back about five or six seconds to hear it all again. But I'm not sure if it had the same racist undertones that Helenick is mentioning, Unknown Speaker 8:57 you now have the media, calling them the community. So a lot of people in the media always refer really key to community backlash. Don't rate community backlash, write white people got together in a park and made some demands on an immigrant wasn't business, right? Yeah. Unknown Speaker 9:13 But do you think that part of the reason why it was mostly or all white people who presented you with their issues with Vegandale is because white people in Parkdale don't have to deal with whatever language barriers and this constant systemic oppression of them trying to get jobs and housing. So at White people, of course, they're going to be the ones to speak up first about a specific restaurant they don't like and why people are always going to be the ones to vocalize something first. But that doesn't necessarily mean that people of colour and immigrants don't also care but there just might not be at the forefront of the argument. Unknown Speaker 9:47 That's a really good point. What's the question you asked me? Unknown Speaker 9:50 I'm just giving you that point. And around half the people in Parkdale are white people. So with that in mind, of course, there are more white people complaining about being in Dublin. Not like people Unknown Speaker 10:01 100%. Right. So Unknown Speaker 10:03 Even though we're on two different sides of this debate Helenick seems to agree with everything I say. And it kind of makes the conversation go in circles. Unknown Speaker 10:11 Why do people get to speak out aboutVegandale? Because they are facing real problems, not real problems, obviously, they have your problems. So like you said, You're an immigrant in Canada, you kind of learn the language. Unknown Speaker 10:23 Unfortunately, Helenicks emphasis on race has seriously coloured his understanding of the conversation. And it's really all he can talk about. Unknown Speaker 10:31 How we're looked at by white people, I just, Unknown Speaker 10:34 But maybe if your business was more accessible to immigrants in the area, that there would be more of commentary from those people? Unknown Speaker 10:40 Well, correct. So that's an interesting point. But you nailed said my business is accessible. Unknown Speaker 10:46 Actually, I said the opposite of that. Unknown Speaker 10:48 That means I would have to lower my prices, Unknown Speaker 10:51 no, no other way to make them work. Unknown Speaker 10:52 I don't think that you should lower your prices. I do think that as a business owners perspective, there are plenty of people who can afford to go to eat at Vegandale, and there's no reason why you should lower your prices. Ingredients are expensive, I understand. But I do think that and it's a reality that we both know that there are white people going to Vegandale and immigrants that were talking about, aren't the people going to Vegandale? They can't afford to. And I'm not saying that that is something that you should change. But I'm saying that that is something that obviously plays a factor in the people who are voicing their concerns about your business because they're the people who are familiar with your business are white people. Unknown Speaker 11:28 It's a very racist thing to think that that we're not supported by communities of colour. We are. Anyone who wants to think that Vegandale is anti immigrant is is playing into a racist rhetoric that immigrants cannot be vegan. It's very racist. Unknown Speaker 11:43 Yeah, but the right but the immigrants that we're talking about in Parkdale are not the ones who can afford to go to Vegandale. Unknown Speaker 11:48 So let's just say hypothetically, I removed my Vegandale branding and marketing. And I'm gonna put out a heart sign that says, I love Parkdale that doesn't make it more accessible. They still can't afford the 15 $20 burger Unknown Speaker 12:00 Doesn't make it more accessible, but it makes it more inclusive. Unknown Speaker 12:03 Oh, I'm not concerned about being inclusive concern. Unknown Speaker 12:07 And this right here is the crux of our debate. The people of Parkdale, whatever colour they are, have made it clear that they care about others and their feelings and Hellenic I guess like any other lucrative business owner does not add I just can't figure it out. And again, Helennic doesn't seem to care. Unknown Speaker 12:25 Vegandale branding has not oppressed you or anyone or taken away their rights. Unknown Speaker 12:30 There is an aspect of Parkdale that everything is how can we be inclusive to the community because it is so diverse. Unknown Speaker 12:37 First off, let's clear up the misconception. We've never called anyone immoral the media spins it like that, we've always said is the action to not consume, Unknown Speaker 12:48 Although he says that they've never called anyone immoral. It's hard not to pick up a certain message in a brewery that advertises morality on tap with options like the Irish dry shining example stout, the morally superior IPA or the see the light lager, Unknown Speaker 13:04 You're right, it is inflammatory. I do we do it on purpose. There's no hiding it. You know, anyone's met me know that those thoughts are real. I legitimately think, you know, have those views and people's feelings are not relevant. And I don't think it should be. Why should I be concerned about people's feelings when there are billions of animals literally being killed when they don't have to be. Unknown Speaker 13:24 But Vegandale is just meters away from one of Toronto's 10 cities where people are homeless and struggle with mental health issues and addiction. And to me drinking a morally superior IPA in such proximity to the poverty that Helenic himself wants the community to stop romanticizing, it seems off even if it is in the name of animal rights. Unknown Speaker 13:45 For people who want to have a discussion with Vegandale, then go talk to the guy next to me who's selling steaks for $90. Once you've done to talk to all those white business owners selling products that are unaffordable to the public, you can come talk to me, you know, Unknown Speaker 13:59 Well, I think other businesses that have high prices are marketed that they are sourced locally, that these communities are supporting local businesses, which will then in turn, circulate that wealth. And it's not that Vegandale, though, isn't doing that. But is that vegan deal and it's marketing completely contradicts that effort to work with the community to work together. Unknown Speaker 14:22 Correct. I don't have a problem with working community but I'm not going to work with a group led by white people. The problem was, is, an always with Vegandale marketing and branding. Vegandale has not oppressed you or taking away your rights in any Unknown Speaker 14:35 Yeah, we're really going in circles now. Helenic uses this line seven times in our entire interview. So I've been generous, and I have left it in twice. Unknown Speaker 14:43 That's a ridiculous argument to say that small businesses are gentrifying Parkdale, and you nailed it. The problem is to Vegandale branding. And I have I take no issue with that. Unknown Speaker 14:52 So do you think the Vegandale is attracting those same white people who seem to dominate these narratives they don't really know much about? Unknown Speaker 15:00 100% So, you know, some of the backlash we get is, hey, you know, V the nail attracts white hipsters into the neighborhood who are mostly white. And to those people I say, Yes, I am, you know, white people, statistically have more disposable income than any other group. When I open a business, a large part of that is how can I make money and how can I survive? And now you're arguing, well, you're bringing white people into a low income neighborhood. Cool. The other option then is, I could be about one of those 150 businesses that have a for lease sign. Unknown Speaker 15:36 So from that standpoint, you're taking you're you're a business owner, and that this perspective you're taking, and you're engaging in these conversations, because people have asked you to? Unknown Speaker 15:44 I deeply regret engaging in the conversation with Parkdale Land Trust, and with that, I should have just said, hey, go fuck yourself. I don't owe you anything. I should have just said that. You can put that on record. You know, I Unknown Speaker 15:56 How did we get here? If I had more time, I'd find as many business owners as I could and see what they think. Because for someone who has such a distaste for white people speaking for the entire community, he also did a lot of speaking for an entire community. Unknown Speaker 16:11 Someone who buys a house and the house has eight tenants in it, and it's a rooming house and they get kicked out there on the street, and they're literally at a homeless shelter. And that person goes and then they want to convert it into some big mansion and live there themselves. And they kick those people out legally. Yeah, we can decry them as a bad actor, but that person isn't doing anything illegal. They do something immoral? Maybe. But then that's not how... Unknown Speaker 16:38 This is a white girl named Jane. Structural and the problems are fixable, and the problems are policy days. Unknown Speaker 16:46 She actually sounds a lot like Helenic, doesn't she? Jane has lived in Parkdale for nine years. And if you ask me the colour of her skin shouldn't stop her from engaging in important conversations about things that she cares about in her community. And Jane has a lot of things to say about the place where she lives, but I'm not sure if that means she's pulling a white savior move. You've probably never heard her speak. But Jane is the brain behind Parkdale life a Toronto famous Instagram account. You know, it's the one with pages and pages of wacky raccoon posts, pictures of garbage on fire and some very weird homemade science. All in Parkdale, of course. One of my favorites is a lost indoor fish sign, last seen King and Dunn answers to snow gums and probably looking for water. Jane recently donated the entire account and it's almost 56,000 followers to the Parkdale Community Food Bank, but her favorite posts are all still there if you need a laugh. Do you have any favorite content? Unknown Speaker 17:41 Definitely. One of my favorites was someone making like a barbecue out of two cinder blocks. There's like the the dominatrix guy eating fries in the McDonald's. Oh, there's the dancing guy. The guy who loves dancing, he's the best. I've always been hyping him up. There's definitely, God, all the things that happened Parkdale. There's there's a lot of stuff about like, and this sounds kind of stupid, but people feeding like pigeons, full meals. Don't know what that's all about. But like filming their neighbours walking around and like singing really beautifully in the middle of the night. There's a guy who does that just like walks up and down Tindell and sings, but like really, really well. Stuff like that. I don't know. It's been a It's been a long time. Unknown Speaker 18:29 So what are some of your favourite places in Parkdale? Unknown Speaker 18:32 Oh, um, these are just like my personal favorite places. They're very, very exclusive. No Frills. Yeah, I go to No Frills about three four times a week. Oh, wow. Like that's like my therapy just like no frills. There's Unknown Speaker 18:49 That's my grocery store too. And trust me when I say that is probably the craziest thing that's been said in this episode so far. Unknown Speaker 18:56 Like it's just I just like to now my favorite Tibetan place is this place called Garlic's kitchen. The guy there who runs it is very sweet and they have very good chowmein I love Mezro's in amazing patio and their food is really good. Which ones people don't know that they have food. There's a place called Budget One Stop and it's like kind of like a convenience store across from Duggins and they sell that we have a really good deal on like shea butter that's maybe like the under the radar one. And every time I go to Poke a sushi and get like a California roll the woman gives me like fruit. Like she just like gives me like a peach or an apple. So that's that's very cute. And I like that. Unknown Speaker 19:41 So what made you decide to give up the account? Unknown Speaker 19:44 I'd done it for five years. Like I had done it for a long time. But it was just you know, it's not a big deal. Like, it's Instagram. It was just for fun, a fun hobby. Like we need to stop taking ourselves so seriously, you know? It was cool to see that lots of people liked it. followed it. I was as surprised as anyone that you both would care about that kind of content and people will be so happy to like that their thing ended up on Parkdale Life. It made people so happy. And it made me happy to people be like, Unknown Speaker 20:12 Oh my god, I made it. And one point, it just stopped being fun. I started feeling like it got a little bit too big Unknown Speaker 20:22 Funny. That's kind of what happened to this episode. Unknown Speaker 20:25 Like, I would just get so many DMs people being like, Oh, this was rude that like post about this like missing cat post about this, like, fundraiser or whatever. And so it got like, just a little bit too much. And I was like, you know what, you know, I don't really want to do this anymore. Um, but not like bad feelings. Just like just I'm like, I don't think I want to do this anymore. Unknown Speaker 20:46 Ask for my Parkdale gems. I love Queen Fresh market for ramen choice and the best consistently juicy pre chopped watermelon. Lowa's corner has the world's best dumplings. I'm convinced. Craig's cookies will make you cry. And Public Butter is a thrift shop slash black hole mashup where I've bought pretty much every piece of denim or leather I own. And this is why Jane and a lot of other people love Parkdale. Unknown Speaker 21:11 This is like all the things I loved about it are not really interesting or unique. There's so many like organizations that are led by people that are truly passionate about helping people beyond any sort of like textual, like academic sense of community, it's, you know, it's people who care about other people. And that detail right there is why Vegandale does not belong in Parkdale. And that doesn't mean that vegans or vegan restaurants, immigrants or small businesses don't belong in Parkdale. But I don't care about feelings. stance is not a rare one for a business owner. Helenic is just a lot more vocal about it. And it's the clash of his non inclusive business model and his feelings as an immigrant that confuses me the most. White people should always make room for minority voices. But does that also mean that white people can't participate outwardly in those conversations without looking like, well, assholes? Is Helenic just seeing a racial tone and all this that isn't there? Or that was never meant to be there? Or is it there within the 109 articles about him or the countless online conversations about him? And the racism of people of individuals who without a doubt are guilty of what Helenic is telling me. Of course it's there and Parkdale needs more representation. I think it knows that but it won't get there with any help from a business like Vegandale , and it's been weird to watch as that Lady Liberty I mentioned bounces animal rights so high over the heads of people in the community. Whether they're white, brown, black or purple. Unknown Speaker 23:57 Oh, just added to the list of cool Toronto neighborhoods I need to check out. Thanks to Jasmine Rach for being our little travel journalist. And thanks to our executive producer Emily Morantz, associate producer and Manuela Vega, artwork by Ben Shelley theme music composed by John Powers. I've been your host Gracie Brison. And of course shout out to Amanda Cupido a slice of vegan cheese. And remember fitting in is overrated.