Unknown Speaker 0:00 I have no right to speak on what the act of coming out is like. But my experience from interviewing Zoe Robinson, she didn't tell me it was a walk in the park, and being married with children at age 54 didn't make that transition any easier. In this episode, we hear from Zoe and her story of becoming Zoe. Produced by myself. Gracie Brison. This is Same Difference. Unknown Speaker 0:36 Those levels okay. 1-2-3 Hello, hello, hello, hello. Unknown Speaker 0:45 Meet Zoe Robinson, a 56 year old woman who works as the Director of Corporate Services at the College of Physiotherapists of Ontario. She is a professional accountant and former CEO of the Canadian freestyle skiing Association, who transitioned at age 54. This is her story. Unknown Speaker 1:13 When did I realize? Yes, well, I woke up November 12, 2018 and said that's enough. Unknown Speaker 1:23 There's a lot that I learned in my conversation with Zoe. The main thing being that this story is her story. And no other person is going to share the same journey that she did. Welcome to Chapter One, the skier. Unknown Speaker 1:49 When as a little child. I played hockey for a year and a half. Like remember shots of me in my gear kind of lift on hockey stick was looking cool. But we were skiing up up in the Collingwood area at Talisman and skiing took over. It's a great family sport and hockey is not. So I was a freestyle skier, my my entire youth. Unknown Speaker 2:19 If you've never been a passionate skier, then it's hard to explain how this hobby can turn into an obsession. But what I can tell you from experience is that once it is an obsession, you can't imagine a life without skiing. Zoe grew up following in her brother's footsteps, who was well lived and breathed skiing and so they both work together for the Canadian freestyle skiing Association. Unknown Speaker 2:47 Skiing was an appropriate my life. I love working in it. Unknown Speaker 2:52 Even though for a ski bum working in the industry seems like a dream come true. Zoe's role as the CEO of the company was incredibly stressful. Unknown Speaker 3:03 In 2006, we were at Apex in penticton. We were doing a World Cup and we were doing our national ski championships back to back weeks. Stupid decision. Dumb, dumb, dumb, stupid. I didn't know how to manage my stress. I didn't know how to manage my time. I have general anxiety disorder. The anxiety just got to the point where I shut down. I was freaking out. I was doubting myself. I wasn't happy with me. I thought people would be angry at me people lose my job like. Unknown Speaker 3:44 On the Friday night before the event started, Gene had gone out to a Pizza Hut with the kids. They were up for dinner I was to go meet them. I got to hotel room, wanted to change is laying the ground, gotten to a fetal position and didn't get up. I taught them. The anxiety had gotten so bad that I couldn't do it. I just didn't know what to do. Unknown Speaker 4:19 And the phone rang and the phone rang and the phone rang and of course I didn't answer it. And then they come back and she finds me. That was the beginning of the end. Unknown Speaker 4:31 Zoe has battled mental health issues for a very long time. This panic attack she experienced was a build up of anxieties and depressions throughout the years and was a turning point in her life. As she reflects on her journey with mental health, she realizes how many experiences she swept under the rug in fear of being outcasted. This was the late 90s and early 2000s. And according to Zoe, this was not a time where mental health problems were welcomed with open arms. Unknown Speaker 5:02 I started to do things for me. It wasn't for work. It wasn't for the family, it was about me. Unknown Speaker 5:15 Chapter Two, the runner. Unknown Speaker 5:26 So I started to run in 2007. As part of getting better. I eventually started running marathons in 2008. I ran Vancouver center in Victoria, I qualified for Boston, ran Boston in April 2009. ran through to Boston. My running times were getting better and better, but I was devoting serious hours to it. And I'd be running 80 to 120 kilometers a week. Plus, having a family, plus working. So the family didn't get a lot out of that. Because it was really the first time out of my set, my mind to a goal. But I became obsessed about it. I was so focused on running. My spouse at the time just said, You've got a choice. Either you, you get in them, you get in the boat and be with the family and be and be a partner or you can go run and but I'm not gonna stick around for it. So I stopped running completely. Unknown Speaker 6:40 I thought to myself, maybe running was holding her together and calling it quits was a huge mistake. But as she explained, it wasn't a hobby. It was a total obsession. And even though she'd quit for the sake of the family, the damage was already done. Running wasn't the cure to her mental health problems. It was a band aid. And when she ripped it off, the wound was not healed. Chapter Three, it all comes out. Unknown Speaker 7:18 But I was, I wasn't happy. I wasn't happy. I couldn't figure out why. I was a breadwinner. I was kind of a partner. I thought I had a loving wife. The relationship had started to go south very quickly at that point. And as I found out that my ex was having an affair with my boss. 14 years, as I learned. Eventually, I was told that it was because she couldn't manage my mental health and my illness. And all that crap came associated with that. I was an angry, anxiety, depressed individual. She just went, well, you know what, I'm not getting anything here. This other person is providing, is meeting that need and they got along very well. I knew that. And I thought they were really good friends. And I think I kind of did a lot of the blind eye the whole thing. So I kind of took my own, you know, like my own hope. It's still complicated. Now we're making it working. As part of that whole story goes. She's been on a long journey. She's still on a long journey. But at least we get along well now. We're always been better friends, better girlfriends than we were husband or wife. Unknown Speaker 8:38 Zoe and I are sitting on a patio at a Toronto cafe, while she tells me about the affair. As she's telling the story in a relatively calm and collected manner. I feel rage. I feel angry and so incredibly upset for her. Yet, she tells me the story with a level of compassion. Almost as if she's accepting part of the blame. At this point for their children's sake, they stayed living together. Sort of. Unknown Speaker 9:17 We converted two thirds of the garage into a little office that became my room that came the place, I want a place where I lived and I lived it's, frankly, miserable existence. So this is where we transition to the long history of how do I get to Zo? Unknown Speaker 9:37 At this point, I'm sure you have a relatively strong handle on Zoe's past, her ups or downs and her long and still ongoing battle with mental illness. All of that is really important for understanding Zoe's whole story. But this story is not all about mental health. In fact, this story from this point on is about triumph. It was a long process of self examination. But she did figure it out. And for Zoe, this discovery was, and I quote, life changing. So with that, Welcome to Chapter Four, discovering Zoe. Unknown Speaker 10:19 I do remember, you know, going into my mom's room and rifling through her lingerie drawer and trying on her panties and trying on her pantyhose and trying to her bras and stuff, and then putting the pillow down or, you know, one of the panel put the pillow down and fantasizing I was pregnant and all these things I went, like, once again, I think that these were things that were meaningful to me in some way. Of course, living in Gray county in 1970s and early 80s, you hid that, you did not publicize that in the least bit like I mean, no chance in hell, what was gonna happen? I wouldn't look to the muscle magazines. I'd look to the running magazine, and looked at the women's fitness magazines, like Shape. You know, I look at those like, oh, wow. Now I didn't realize at the time, you know, I thought on being a red blooded young boy and you know, I find sexy and stuff. But I think what more became about is that I saw myself in these pictures of these beautiful, leith, fit women. that resonated with me. I would, that's what I want to look like. I remember situations were in the summertime in SoCal rock trucks were all the rage back back in those days. So we're like, cut off trucks. I remember one day, coming out of the back of the house and going up garbage and Dad looks like we're not with me. So go back inside and change. We did a trip. What was like grade nine or so? grade? 10? Yeah, you do your trip to Ottawa. So the last day, we're about to come home on the bus. I'm walking by the store that has these great, amazing deep red linen pants. Oh, what do I do? I go in. I try them. I love them. I buy them. I go home. I wore them once to school. Quickly they thought about that was not cool. Unknown Speaker 12:41 These were all little things that looking back obviously meant more to Zoe than what she thought they did at the time. So she wanted some groovy, flashy red pants. She didn't think much into that. Other than the fact that she just thought women's fashion was way better than men's. But I wanted to know more. I wanted to know why these little clues didn't resonate more with Zoe at the time. I wanted to know if childhood memories like the one she explained, are common experiences among transgendered people. But most importantly, I wanted to be educated. So I reached out to Kelly McKee, a registered clinical counselor who specializes in gender dysphoria transitioning and gender identity issues. According to Kelly, where a person falls on the gender identity or sexual orientation spectrum isn't a choice, despite some people believing it is. Here's the thing. The unfortunate reality is that a lot of people are uneducated, about the LGBTQ2+ community. And even worse, is that a lot of these people are just okay with staying uneducated. But this is what's causing the divide and acceptance, fair treatment and equal rights in this society, according to McKee. So here's your education lesson. The next chapter is called the transition. But before we hear from Zoe, let's hear from Kelly, because I believe her insight from a scientific background helps us understand more. At least it did for me. Unknown Speaker 14:14 I'm a registered clinical counselor in BC. I have an MA in counseling psychology from UBC. And I've been counseling for almost over 25 years. Gender Dysphoria basically is that discomfort or distress. The discrepancy between how one sees one's own gender identity and that person's biological sex. Biopsies of brains of individuals who have passed have indicated that for people who are transgender, I'm going to use the male to female for instance, half what it for lack of a better term, a female brain. It's sort of like, everything's in the wrong shell. And the dysphoria often is, it develops, it's not like all of a sudden boom, it hits full bore, it can, like I say, it can come at different times. For some, it happens when a child is like six or seven years old. They already say, why does the minute I don't? I'm a girl, why am I doing look this way? I'm not like, my sister, or my friend or whatever. For others, it can come later, when there's a better they gain an understanding or like, oh, this is why I'm feeling this way. I'm in no, this doesn't fit me anymore. Unknown Speaker 15:52 I was seeing a doctor. I ended it because of the kindess barrier that I didn't understand.And he said to me, You have dysphoria. And then, you know, I said, oh, what the hell is that? Unknown Speaker 16:06 Basically, there's a disconnect between how you think about yourself, and what reality is. There are a lot of men out there who are hiding in a closet. I've met them. I've had sex with them. And you know what, it's more prevalent than you think. But for a whole bunch of reasons, they won't do what I've done. For all the same, so they're scared of, you know, what's my wife going to think, what are my kids gonna think, what's my family going to think? How am I going to go lose all that. I'm gonna lose my job, I'm gonna lose my place in society, within like community. You know, what's gonna happen to me? And they go through the calculation at the end of the day, that it's not worth it. Unknown Speaker 16:55 Not connecting with one's authentic self creates that inner conflict, that dissonance increases, it becomes traumatic. Unknown Speaker 17:09 Zoe was done with the trauma, she was done with the hiding done with not being herself. Unknown Speaker 17:17 I came out because I saw more positive portrayals. I made the calculation that I was pretty safe. The cost benefit analysis, so to speak, is that I'd rather be, rather be somewhat miserable around this and have this discomfort between what you psychically believe your identity is versus what you physically have. Unknown Speaker 17:45 Transitioning in most cases creates a total feeling of relief, according to Kelly. But that doesn't mean that the anxiety and difficulties just disappear overnight. A big battle that Zoe particularly faced was figuring out her sexual identity. Here's where I'll admit, I lacked knowledge. I viewed sexual identity through a cisgendered, heterosexual lens. Kelly explained to me that transgendered people can have a really tough time figuring out their sexual identity, because there's an expectation that they're supposed to be attracted to the opposite sex in which they identify with. Meaning a trans woman would be attracted to a man. But Kelly explained to me that this doesn't really make sense, because sexuality is on a spectrum. Being straight is the expected sexual orientation, because of generations of societal norms, and constructs. But this expectation makes it extremely hard for trans people to navigate their sexuality. So here's chapter six, romance. By this point in mine and Zoe's long chat, the cafe night rush was starting. Our conversation just flowed and continued to flow despite having people sitting next to us. Well, six feet from us, of course. I mean, we've already been there for a couple hours, and we were just diving into Zoe's sexual orientation. So without further ado, Unknown Speaker 19:11 Well, three things happened to me. And the first was coming out as transgender, big change, happy and the second was getting out of a bad marriage, and that was good for me and the family and my spouse. And then the third one was trying to do with my sexual orientation. I'm still trying to figure it out. So I started having sex with men. I, I am the woman, I am the receiver on the bottom. I it's I love it. I hated the man role, I guess. I was bad at it. I just didn't want to do the work, the whole thing. Yeah, just like don't don't want to do it. It's just, can we just stop? Please do that. Although I, where my where my difficulty comes in as though I like having sex with men. I hate being with men. Because at the end of the day, that's why we treat you like a human being. And like, what just does it matter what I look like? Does it matter what I have between my legs? Who cares? You can be confident as managers. You can have success in life. You can have success personally. It's harder. No question about it just proven. If you're strong and confident about what you do, and you you and you're thoughtful about the skills and experiences you've developed over time, you can do anything you want. I still go up and down. I still have bad days. But I am demonstrably happier than they've ever been in my life. Because I've accepted, understand, and luckily. Unknown Speaker 21:27 Well, that was my episode, and I hope it was as I opening for you as it was for me. And thanks to our executive producer Emily Morantz associate producer Manuela Vega artwork by Ben Shelley theme music composed by John Powers. I've been your host Gracie Brison and producer of that episode. And of course, last but not least, shout out to Amanda Cupido, the Legend of all legends. And remember, fitting in is overrated.