Unknown Speaker 0:00 What it means to be Canadian will vary depending on who you ask. In this episode, Shakir Rimzy speaks to racialized public servants about fitting into Canadian culture and being a part of the system. This the Same Difference. Unknown Speaker 0:46 For some of us, Canada isn't our native land, not by having long lineages, or ancestors who once called this land home, but by a generation that's often still around us, who chose to abandon everything they knew, from countries far and wide across the world, to give their children a chance to find the meaning of what true patriot love is, or we change the national anthem. It's an all of us command now. We get to steer what the true north strong and free means to Canadians from all backgrounds, we have a government that's acknowledged systemic racism in this country. And while words from throne, may placate some to others, we're still a long ways away from true equality in this country. Canada in 2020, remains a nation in waiting. Waiting for a vaccine and a return to normalcy. Waiting to return to a Canada that's better than the one we left. Please give a warm Canadian Welcome to our guests today. I'm Shakir Rimzy and you're listening to we stand on guard for the. Unknown Speaker 2:05 My name's Susan. Last name Sailor. I currently work for the Canadian Armed Forces in the world Canadian Navy. My trade is logistics officer. I've been in the Navy for approximately three years now. I was posted in Quebec last year. This year, I'm working as a software developer in Ottawa. My job basically entails creating new applications in order to automate certain applications for the military so that it's easier to use and it's faster to use. Unknown Speaker 2:39 So my name is Angus Ho, I work as a constituent or sorry, administrative assistant now, for Councillor Paul Ainslie in Ward 24, Scarborough Guildwood, City of Toronto. Working at the counselor's office, I am in charge of the transportation and parks portfolio. So anything to do with major infrastructure setting, you know, setting up a traffic control signal, a pedestrian crosswalk, road resurfacing projects, and pretty much anything that would affect the daily commute of the residents in my ward. So the installation of a new playground, if a community member tells me that they want new swings in their area, then you know that they would be contacting our office, I would bring it up with the appropriate park staff and get the ball rolling. Unknown Speaker 3:30 So is being a minority in public service, something that you've always been comfortable being? Does the fact that you're in the system have any place in your head? Unknown Speaker 3:41 I always knew that I wanted to do something in public service, I just didn't quite know in what capacity. So if there was there was never really this big Oh, I'm now a part of the system. Because I really, I always figured I would be at some point. Unknown Speaker 3:58 Yes and no. So yes, I was comfortable. Because I grew up in an environment where I was, like, my mentality, my behaviour was really Canadian eyes like you there was no hint of Indian to the point that people actually they were very cautious about when they asked about my background. So there they tread very lightly, that there are few who are curious, curious enough to ask those dangerous questions. Where a song just make an assumption they don't even care. Unknown Speaker 4:28 So is a question about race considered dangerous. Unknown Speaker 4:34 I'm not too big on labels and whatnot. And, frankly, that's not it's never been something that's affected me too much to be honest with you. Unknown Speaker 4:44 The reason why I think they're dangerous, the way they ask questions is I'm sorry, I have to ask, what is your background from? I'm so sorry that I have to ask but are you in tears? I'm so sorry. But I have to ask but when did you immigrate? You know it's like a sort of like an apology that it's like, these are questions that they have to apologize for what do you know, they can just be open about them. And so I don't think I've ever had anyone who openly just asked me, you know, hey, where are you from? Your skin colour doesn't dictate that you're from Canada, but were you born here? You know, nothing like that. No, it's so sorry. So yeah, they're very careful about the way they ask certain things. And you have to apologize. Because they're curious. Unknown Speaker 5:29 Isn't that just a typical Canadian stereotype? Apologizing for no reason? Unknown Speaker 5:35 Yes. And it's just like, of all the things to apologize for, why do you have to apologize for asking a question? Yeah, they, they tread too lightly. Unknown Speaker 5:46 Okay, so let's not tread lightly here. Angus. Let's be blunt. Where you born? Where's your family from? Unknown Speaker 5:54 Alright, so actually, I was born and raised in British Columbia, Vancouver, or Richmond, right outside of Vancouver. I moved to Ontario when I was 10. And I lived in Markham with my aunt and uncle for a little bit then in when I was 13. I moved to Scarborough and I've been there since. My family identifies as Chinese specifically from Hong Kong. My grandparents are also from different areas of China's I believe my grandmother is from Shanghai. And my grandfather, if the Guangdong Unknown Speaker 6:28 Susan, you said you were Indian, but were you born there? Unknown Speaker 6:32 Yeah. So I was born in 1992. And I was born in India in a city called Belgaum. From there, I moved to Malaysia. I believe I was in India for about a year and then moved to in Malaysia for about two years. And I moved back to India. So I spent my kindergarten in Malaysia, and I spent my grade one in India, and a little bit of grade two, and then moved to Canada in 2001, where I started grade three, and from there on, I've just been in Canadian schools, and I probably moved to like, seven to 15 different schools. Unknown Speaker 7:15 So how exactly was your school experience? Were you guys in a diverse environment? Or did you find yourself surrounded by a lot of people that look like you? Unknown Speaker 7:24 I would say I was really lucky, because in my high school friend group, I had, you know, somebody from every, every different, every different race. You know, we were all from a very diverse group of ethnic backgrounds. I never, I never really felt like the odd man out because everyone was different in some way. So that was one of the advantages of living in one of the most diverse wards in the city. Unknown Speaker 7:50 Oh, that was interesting. Yes. So in school. So growing up grade three, grade four, I didn't realize I was any different than other kids, I just sort of blended in quite well. I think up until grade eight, people noticed that I had like this British accent. And so I was often asked where my background was, and they automatically assumed I was from England. And I'm not sure why. So I had this weird confusion about where I really was from for a longest time. So they asked questions, and I I'm like, I don't know, let me go ask my parents. And so that's what my parents started telling me. You know, this is who you are. Unknown Speaker 8:32 Was that a similar kind of home environment for you, Angus? Were you really educated on aspects of your culture? Unknown Speaker 8:40 My family is very traditional. So we'll celebrate the Lunar New Year's time, you know, Chinese, New Year's, all all the big hubbub with the entire family. We would, you know, go out and grab dumplings for that we would make the traditional foods. All in all, I was very connected to my, to my heritage when I was younger. You know, my parents always encouraged me to read Chinese history and study all the 5000 years of Chinese civilization as often as I could. Unknown Speaker 9:11 I mean, since both of you were brought up with another culture in the house. I'm just wondering, when did you really make that distinction between if you were Canadian, or Indian or Chinese? Unknown Speaker 9:24 So in the culture that I'm bought up in what your parents say, normally go, so if your parents said, this is where this is your new life, now you just accepted. There was no like, you didn't have that option to think twice or, but I know that the transition was really fast. We sort of accepted the life that we were put into, and we just sort of, you know, took it one day at a time. Unknown Speaker 9:49 Coming from my more traditional like conservative Chinese household, there's a moment when you're like, Okay, you know, some of the things that they're teaching me aren't the right things and definitely shouldn't be reflected, are, is definitely not in line with our more Canadian values. So the more I realized that I was less in tune with what my parents thought, the more I stopped identifying with Chinese Canadian and more no, I'd rather just be Canadian. Unknown Speaker 10:20 So does that cause any friction between you and your family? Unknown Speaker 10:26 Oh, sometimes, you know, my parents aren't quite or my family, in general is not quite progressive. So I guess for the most part, I don't really share some opinions with my parents and family in general, because it's annoying to listen to them complain about it, or, you know, just spew out whatever old school nonsense that they used to say that they were taught. Unknown Speaker 10:54 Susan, we're your parents supportive or a hinderance to you joining the military? Unknown Speaker 11:00 It was funny, because my dad was the one who was encouraging us to do this. And it's really interesting, because it was both so my dad was really excited. And he likes to brag, and he brags to everyone that both the kids are both his kids are in the military. My mom has always been a brand. So she's always like oh no. What if you know what if there's actually a war that breaks out? What do you have to do when she comes up with all these scenarios? And, and I've explained to her about No, Mom, you can't do it that way. Yes, Mom, this might happen. No love, don't wait, it's never gonna happen. So it's, yeah, even now, she's a little hesitant. She's like, I don't understand why you're in the military. But she is just accepting now, now that she knows that my job isn't big on the front lines at the moment. And she knows that it's not gonna happen right away. She's, she's okay. But once I do want to be in the front lines, she's gonna start panicking again. Mothers don't change. Unknown Speaker 11:58 So I know, both of you have worked in Quebec. And it's really interesting to look at Quebec, through the lens of race and culture. And I want to ask you guys, how much does the element of the French language just change your own perceptions of being in Canada? Unknown Speaker 12:22 Oh, the environment in Quebec was different for a couple of reasons. One, because English is not their first language. They don't have the ability to beat around the bush or use politically correct terminology. So when they speak to me in English, because they know I can't speak French to save my life. They will, you know, be just blunt. There is there's nothing they can like, they don't know the words that they can describe. There's no like, like I said, beating around the bush was just, hey, you're different. Why is that? You know, they're, they don't even apologize for it. In fact, when I was learning the language. I learned that rarely did they apologize, they say, pardon me, or excuse me, but they never say sorry, which was interesting. I mean, we all live based on judging certain stereotypes, right? But, but we have some sort of reference, whereas when I worked in Quebec, they had no reference. They had no idea, like how to treat this new girl who was of colour, like how do you? Like? How would I, we're really curious. So we're just going to go and ask her straight out. But if they approach you, they're confident they're fine. They can ask you all the questions, but to approach you, that's the tricky part. That's a battle that they fight. They're like, okay, is she approachable? Can we go talk to her? But once they talk to me, you know, they realize that I'm no different. Unknown Speaker 13:49 Do you take a certain satisfaction about breaking stereotypes? Unknown Speaker 13:54 Sometimes I omit all of it, I totally do. It's always fun to surprise people. The biggest surprise, I guess, is when when, when French speaking members from Quebec are surprised when I start speaking French to them. They're like, oh, my God, this Asian kid knows how to speak French. Like it, it's always funny to see them completely shocked. They're like, wait a minute, this guy speaks French really, you have all this? Like of all people around here. So that can be fun to watch every so often. It's not it's not I know, they don't do it out of malice. They're just, you know, surprised with all. Unknown Speaker 14:30 Like, we're used to seeing colour everywhere. Quebec not so much. I've talked to I've spoken to a couple of my colleagues who are also of colour, and they have gotten job offers in quebec. And the reason why they're rejected is because of the language. They fear that they're not able to speak the language so they, they just they don't go which is why there's a lot of colour in Quebec people are not used to seeing someone like me and so I can actually attention? Unknown Speaker 15:01 Extra attention, how? Unknown Speaker 15:03 When I've done that uniform, I don't even have to make that effort. People actually come to me and they say hi. Whereas if I was in the civilian world, I have to make that effort to close that gap between the other person and I. If I have the uniform, it's because I'm part of an organization. They don't see colour, they see organization, but then the next step is the colour. But even then, every time like, every single time, I'm out in the civilian world, and I have my uniform on, I have not had a day where no one's approached me or asked me questions or, you know, asked me about my background, or asked me how I got into the forces, because I think Canadians take pride in the fact that, you know, someone of colour has joined an organization that is Canadian. So they like to, they want to know more, like, how did that happen? And so they always ask me my story. And this has happened every time I have a uniform out in the civilian world. Whereas without the uniform, nothing, they don't even acknowledge you. Unknown Speaker 16:15 Just blend in with the crowd. Unknown Speaker 16:17 Yeah, exactly. And nothing special anymore. Unknown Speaker 16:20 So I want to ask her this race ever manifested itself in a positive way? Are there certain things that because of your cultural background that you've learned and incorporated into yourself? Unknown Speaker 16:34 Well, I knew there was a higher probability of me getting hired because of my colour, because they were looking for someone who had colour. And on top of that, me being female, on top of being coloured, and my age, also, and the job that I was applying to so all these factors, I knew right away that I was going to get in, just because that's what they were looking for. Unknown Speaker 16:57 You know, what, with a lot of more Asian conservative ideals, you know, what, what do we value we value discipline and self restraint. And that, and that's something that a employer would definitely value out in, in the work in the workplace, right, you know, they you want an employee who's discipline to follow instructions, and, and whatnot. But at the same time, in Western society, we encourage more free thinking, and, you know, adaptability and whatnot. And that's something I had to learn a little bit more from. Unknown Speaker 17:31 How important is that versatility of being able to blend the best of both worlds? Unknown Speaker 17:37 Surely one of the most important things, right? Like, if you don't learn to see things from different angles, and you only see the way like, oh, your your parents taught you this, then you should always do it this way. You're, there's very little room to grow unless you brought him over. Right, right. So I'm lucky that I've met a bunch of people who are from different backgrounds who have different ideas and different philosophies on why. And have helped me impart that so that, you know, I can, I can think flexibly and I can, and I realized that, you know, there's more ways than one to get things done. Unknown Speaker 18:15 So like, I brought up the the battle between whether we should talk to her or not. I never let people make that decision. If I see someone looking at me, I will go and I'll introduce myself. And that is one way that that will stop them from making assumptions about me. Or one way that'll stop them from making that battle is like, is she friendly? Is she good? And it'll also start rumours behind my back. So if you see someone, smile and go say, Hi. Unknown Speaker 18:43 One question for you, now, actually, do you believe that the Canadian model of multiculturalism is the mosaic model? Or is it one of the other ones like the the tree? Unknown Speaker 18:54 You know, it's a question that I've asked myself a lot, because I think it really depends on what kind of generation you're from. To my parents, it's more of a mosaic because they're a bit more separated to the general Canadian ecosystems than myself. To them, they fit like a puzzle piece into, you know, this janky mosaic, but I was sort of I'm foraged within, like the school system here. I'm forged within the cultural system here.I grew up here. So to me, I am it's more of a tree I have more roots here than my parents. They were planted in here, but I really had a lot of my nurturing phase of my life happening here. Like it's not to say that racism doesn't exist. It clearly does and you know it. It does affect everything everybody differently in you know, different races are marginalized differently. Unknown Speaker 19:54 Even asking questions about identity can be difficult for some especially when you include discrimination or marginalization to that equation. It's definitely a question that in keeps needing to be answered by different people. But do you have a suggestion on what people can do just to stem the tide of intolerance? Unknown Speaker 20:17 They don't need to worry about offending someone just because of the questions they ask. I know, they're extremely careful about certain words that they choose when they're around me. And I don't think they need to do that. It makes the workplace a little bit more, yeah, it's professional. However, it makes it It feels like you're stepping on landmines, you know, or like eggshells. If they're careful in return, you also want to be careful about the questions you ask. You know, if they're being cautious about certain things that they do, you in turn sort of feel, oh, maybe they don't like it when I do it this way. So maybe I will follow what they do. Unknown Speaker 21:07 And with this topic, we can talk for hours and still come up with some fresh discoveries, nuances. But it's been a blast, guys, thank you so much for being with me today. And thanks for helping me answer a question that I think you guys really know how to answer best Unknown Speaker 21:27 No, and thank you for doing this. Unknown Speaker 21:29 Thanks. And thank you for listening to we stand on guard for the. Unknown Speaker 21:34 Canadian eh? It really isn't just beavers and maple syrup. Is it? Shakir Ramzy offering some informed perspective on Canadian culture. And thanks to our executive producer Emily Morantz associate producer, Manuela Vega, artwork by Ben Shelley, theme music composed by John Powers. I've been your host Gracie Brison and shout out to Amanda Cupido, a bottle of maple syrup. And remember, of course, fitting in is overrated.