Unknown Speaker 0:00 Few people are aware of the lengths that photo journalists go to get their work done. Getting the right shot is hard, especially when you're working in a conflict zone, and especially when you're a woman. In this episode, producer Nikki Hashemian dives into the world of female photojournalists and the trials and tribulations of documenting war and conflict. This is Same Difference. Unknown Speaker 0:39 When someone gets their daily dose of news, they may not always be aware of the lengths journalists go to for that information, especially women. Photo journalists have put themselves in danger overseas to capture a story. And that's something only they can understand. Covering war for women hasn't been the simplest task. They've had to prove themselves in every aspect of their profession. They've had to convince editors, they weren't too emotional, they physically and mentally could handle war, and they wouldn't distract their male colleagues on the frontlines with their femininity. And when they got sexually assaulted or abused, they couldn't speak up in fear of losing assignments. Female journalists have always had to fight for their place in the industry, whether it's covering sports, hard news, or taking photos. But some have been lucky in having a successful and fulfilling career as a conflict photographer. An American photo journalist originally from North Carolina, Andrea Bruce has been photographing war for 20 years. She brings attention to people living in the aftermath of war. She is the CO owner and member of the photo agency Nor, and for years, she has recorded the world's most dangerous and violent areas as a staff photographer for The Washington Post. Andrea has focused on Iraq since 2003. Following the difficulties and hardship of the conflict experienced by Iraqis and the U.S. military. She has also wrote a weekly column for the post called Unseen Iraq. Her awards include top honours from the White House News Photographs Association, where she has been named photographer for the year, four times now. But her path that led her to photography came as a surprise. Unknown Speaker 2:40 I went to school at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill to be a writer, to be a reporter. And then I took a photo class my last semester senior year, and I fell in love with it. So I kind of quit everything else in my life and dedicated everything to photography. And I eventually got a job at this really wonderful small paper called the Concord Monitor in New Hampshire, and I love really diving into small town life or kind of community journalism idea kind of is that everybody has a story. And then I got a job at the Washington Post. And then 9/11 happened. So I was sent overseas. And I realized quickly that that kind of small town approach to photography, kind of idea that everyone has a story and about the community itself was even more important in more zones than that it was in the U.S. People in the United States, weren't paying attention to the wars in Afghanistan and in Iraq. And that was quite frustrating. Every time I came home, you know, I felt like I failed. No one's paying attention. I can't get people to understand what it's like to be Iraqi or what it's like to be a soldier. And so I kept going back to try to do it better and try to really reach people. And so my goal was kind of to get people I you know, I think covering the the violence that exists in war zones is extremely important. But I think it's also good to balance it with everyday life and what it's like to live in war zones or just to exist, because if people can't relate to people, a different culture, or a different country, a different religion, a different language, then they're never going to care what happens to them. Unknown Speaker 4:48 Women photojournalists have faced life threatening situations while traveling in conflict zones. In 2011, CBS News chief foreign correspondent Laura Logan was brutally attacked by a group of men in Cairo, she was repeatedly raped and beaten. In an interview with The New York Times she said, quote, the physical wounds heal. You don't carry around the evidence the way you would if you had lost your leg or arm in Afghanistan, end quote. Well known photojournalist Lynsey Addario was kidnapped in Libya while a gun to her head and groped by a group of men, she wondered if she was going to be killed or raped. She's always traveled with a male colleague, whether a driver or translator. When she felt threatened, she apologized and was submissive. Lynsey tried to ignore the verbal threats and inappropriate touching, she has said, quote, I'm not going to complain every time a guy grabs my butt. My editors are never going to send me anywhere if I do that, end quote. A study by Hannah Storm, the former director of the International News Safety Institute, says women are three times more likely to get online threats and harassment than their male colleagues. A study by the International Women's Media Foundation found that 30% of women said they thought about no longer being a journalist anymore, because of the online threats. This shows the silent culture of female journalists and the importance of keeping quiet when they are harassed. It also goes beyond the online threats. Women journalists have to think about their safety. Andrea has felt uncomfortable at times, and she has tried her best to blend in as much as possible. But she thinks maybe being a woman has kept her a bit safer. Unknown Speaker 6:37 Well, I think it's always been really important to understand a culture before you get there as much as possible and realize that, you know, I am not the story. So when I go to another culture, I try to assimilate as much as possible. So I wear a burqa, or I wear, you know, a hijab in different places just to be respectful. I just kind of assimilate and then you're kind of invisible. Women are often kind of in the background, you know, that we might be noticed. But you know, when I put a buyer on in the back of a car, and I drive somewhere I'm less noticed, then a white man in a like Iraq would be. Like American white men have even more of a problem covering daily life in Iraq. They're more noticed. And probably people react to them differently. But for me, I can, I can, at least for a couple of minutes, and people until people see my face as I talk to them, and they know my accent and they see how tall I am like, then they'll know that I'm not from there, probably. But it's, I don't feel like it's more dangerous. I feel like you just have to kind of go with the flow a little bit more. During Ashura celebration, there might be like 10s of 1000s of men in the streets celebrating and the women are mostly on the rooftops, but as a photographer, I was down in the crowds, with men dressed dressed appropriately. And I might get harassed for that, because it's, you know, not really accepted, you know, and that kind of makes sense. But for the most part, people treated me really well. And I think that being a woman kept me safer. I mean, the only times I've felt uncomfortable really well, the biggest way I felt comfortable is actually with the U.S. military. I'm was often the only woman that you know, kind of remotely based company had seen in like many months, and I don't know there, there was kind of a dislike of the media to begin with but then also on top of that being a woman was not always a happy position to be in. And it felt very isolating, you know, where my colleagues who are men could kind of hop into an embed situation and like sleep next to the guys and like pal up with them. I was always stuck in like a supply closet somewhere. And it took me a long time to often prove myself to be accepted. So I would spend several weeks to kind of gain their confidence and gain their respect. Which would happen eventually, but it was always more hard one. Unknown Speaker 9:34 There's a lot that Andrea has witnessed in her career, but she has found ways to help her cope with the violence she has seen over the years. Andrea feels the public isn't aware of what journalists have gone through in order to report a story and what it really takes to be out in the field. Unknown Speaker 9:55 People have no idea how hard it is or the months of preparation, the like, days without sleep, that extreme situations that we go through to get pictures on our front page or in the magazine. And I think maybe that's also a problem from the media, we haven't done a very good job of telling our own story because we never want the story to be about us. We want it to be you know about the rest of the world. But then it also doesn't give room for people to understand how we work ethically, as well as like the day to day. To know that we do our best to report the truth, the closest thing to the truth that we could possibly find that we're trained to kind of lead through, you know, as other people say, fake news or like false, or just slanted points of view. We we tried to present the world, like a living history, on budgets, not an easy task. Photographing in those situations, it is really intense, although at the moment, you're more concerned with all the logistics of being there, like, where am I going to sleep tonight? Where can I get food? How am I going to get my pictures sent to this publication? You know, and so you're constantly kind of thinking ahead of like, what is the next step. So you don't always think about what's in front of you. But I mean, you think about the situation, for sure, and empathize with people, but you don't let yourself get lost in not, at the moment. At least for me, I also have this thing that I do that I got from my mom, which is whenever I whenever I see somebody crying, I also cry. And it sounds ridiculous. And sometimes it seems very unprofessional at the moment but it also I think, helps me deal with a lot of the pressure, this sadness in the in the moment. And I don't bottle it up. As much as I think some of my colleagues do. But it does affect me. I mean, I am probably much more serious than I was, before I started covering war. I see the connections between things. I get more frustrated when people don't pay attention to the world, because I feel like we all as humans have a responsibility to pay attention to what's happening to people, even if you don't think it's going to affect you, because everything is connected. Unknown Speaker 12:46 I think the biggest way that having a child has affected me is that, and I've never felt empathy for people. But when you have a child, and you see that innocence and that purity and just who they are, then you look around you, people who are troubled, or have either physical or mental or emotional issues that have kind of hindered them and made life really heavy, ou think, wow, this was once a two year old, who was so you know, innocent and, and then the world happened to them, you know? And how does that happen? And how can we, you know, make that a little less intense or negative people? Everyone kind of starts at the same place. Unknown Speaker 13:45 Andrea has been all over the world telling other people's stories. Her most memorable experiences include the people she's met and having the privilege to capture their lives. Unknown Speaker 13:57 Covering that Afghan elections and watching them vote for the first time in 2004. Or hanging out with a woman named Khaula who is a prostitute in Iraq for a year or, you know, living in Ramadi with, you know, a unit of Marines for the month. You know, all of these situations kind of come back and I remember them every day. I mean, just this morning, I was thinking about these factory workers in India that I hung out with for several weeks, who come from the countryside to the big city for the first time and work in these factories and what is it like for them on a day to day basis and learning how to make their own money and the kind of freedom and the fear that kind of goes along with that kind of experience for them. So yeah, every, every person I meet and every place I've been that has their lives become my life, quite literally. It's been, you know, the privilege of being able to meet women from all different cultures and experiences and become close to them and friends with them and share this kind of strange shared experience of being a woman and but in different cultures and just knowing them. I think that is probably the biggest privilege I've had. Unknown Speaker 15:34 Now, let me take you to Afghanistan. Narges Ghaffari is an African woman working as a photographer in Afghanistan for 10 years now. She travels around the province working for different organizations to capture images of her community. She is looked down upon for working, but it just drives her even more to fight for change. Working as a woman in Afghanistan isn't simple. Narges always needs to take precautions when traveling in different areas in fear of being kidnapped or killed. She only travels with organization she's working for and stays in safe locations set up by them. There is a significant difference in women and men photographers in Afghanistan, Narges says there are barriers for women to do their job in the country. Unknown Speaker 16:24 Being a photographer, especially a female photographer is challenging and risky in Afghanastan and there is no doubt about it. There are many reasons for that. One of the reasons is casual issues. As a woman, if you are going to travel to remote areas, you will have to have the ad campaign you have one of your male family members. And so you cannot travel to those places alone. The second reason is insecurity. There are some places and that are insecure and your life would be in danger, if you travel to those places. Due to cultural barriers is challenging for female photographers to go on the streets or go to remote areas to take photos. And so they may not go. However, it will be easy for male photographer to go anywhere and take photos. And it's more culturally accepted for main photo gear offer to go in every year but not for female photographer. Unknown Speaker 17:33 Narges just works for UNICEF in Afghanistan. She inspires women in her community that they can achieve anything and continues to fight for education for girls. Even though she's doing a man's job in Afghanistan, she's proud she is showing young women that they can achieve more than marriage. The numbers in women journalists are rising in Afghanistan, and she is excited to see what the future holds for women in the country. Unknown Speaker 17:59 When I started working as a photographer, I was very young, and I didn't have any experience on photography, skis, and even I didn't travel to the field before. But that didn't stop me to follow my dreams. So my advice or my recommendation to young girls is that if they like something, they should just follow it. Unknown Speaker 18:26 For the future, Andrea wants change and hopes different people from all walks of life can get involved with storytelling, because it's a way of helping people to connect with one another. Unknown Speaker 18:39 I think the number one thing I hope for is for more Black and brown photographers who are women throughout the world, whether their visions and their voices are sorely needed. And then beyond that, I hope that the media regains its position and its necessity in the world. I you know, you see how people respect journalism in places where it's been banned, like in Syria or feared like it is in China. You know, I just hope that places like the United States, doesn't lose the Free Press the way and it's been kind of a beacon of hope throughout the world. People need to pay attention, you know, a war in Syria does affect you, in some way, somehow in history. History is important. And history is happening around us all the time. We have to kind of stay aware doesn't mean you have to change everything affects that you see but paying attention will in the long run will keep people educated and make the right help people make the right choice. decisions whether that's an election, or how you see people. Unknown Speaker 20:17 You know what? It is so true. We often look at these photos from war zones in conflict zones in the news or history textbooks from when we were kids, but rarely do we think, at least I don't really think about who took those photos. That was Nikki Hasshamian Thank you for that. And thanks to our executive producer Emily Morantz, associate producer, Manuela Vega, artwork by Ben Shelley theme, music composed by John Powers. I've been your host Gracie Brison. And of course a shout out to Amanda Cupido. A photograph that makes you cry. And remember, fitting in is overrated.