Unknown Speaker 0:00 Hey everyone, and welcome to Same Difference, where fitting in is overrated. On this season, we dive into the theme of belonging in all of its many meanings from family and culture, to career and personal interests. How do we find where we belong? And what do we do when we're not quite sure where that is yet? Our first episode is a love story. Executive Producer, Emily Morantz is going to tell us the tale of her best friend, Jana and her partner, Lou, and how Lou found a sense of belonging, not just in their relationship, but also in a whole new culture that accepts them for who they are. This is same difference. Unknown Speaker 0:53 So tell me about how you met. Unknown Speaker 0:55 Okay, so there's two versions of the story. Unknown Speaker 1:01 Hi, I'm Emily Morantz. And this is Jana and her partner, Lou. They are very much inlove. Unknown Speaker 1:07 There's the version that we tell our family and then there's the version that we like actually have. Unknown Speaker 1:13 It's not that spicy, but Unknown Speaker 1:15 I'm talking to them on the phone, but I know exactly where they are. In their small cozy condo in Winnipeg, Manitoba. They're probably at their dining table. A cluster of plants thrives in the corner of an open plan kitchen, they renovated themselves. Behind them a bookshelf is loaded with the classics of the feminist canon. Unknown Speaker 1:35 So basically, we met on Tinder, Jana started speaking to me. And then after a couple days, I said, oh, like, I'd really like to ask you out on a date. But this is really bad timing, because I'm going away tomorrow for a week. And then Jana responded and said, ya is really bad timing, because I'm going away tomorrow for a month. And I went to this pride party, like the night after the parade and I saw her there. And I thought that she was in Montreal, I walked up to her. And I was like, hey, oh my god. And that was the first time that we met in person. And it was totally unexpected, and we just kind of bumped into each other. Um, so that's what we tell our family how we met, we just say that we met at pride, which is like kind of cute. Unknown Speaker 2:25 I know all this because Jana has been my best friend for 20 years, which is quite a feat for two people in their mid 20s. I haven't known Lou quite as long. But over the course of their three and a half year relationship, we've become friends. And we're about to have more in common than just Jana. Just over a year ago, Lou announced that they're going to convert to Judaism. If you're not Jewish, which, statistically speaking, you're probably not, you might not even know that it's possible to convert to Judaism. As a group, we're not really the types to go around knocking on doors and inviting people to join the gang. There are only 14.6 million Jewish people worldwide. That's 0.2% of the global population. We are a rare breed. What you might not know regardless of how closely acquainted you are with Jewish culture is just how broad it can be. That 14.6 million number refers only to people who identify as Jewish above all else. But what about people with only one Jewish parent? Jewish people who don't consider themselves religious or Jews who don't fit into the traditional image of Judaism, Ethiopian Jews or Mizrahi Jews, which are people descended from ancient Jewish communities in the Middle East in North Africa. If you're not Jewish, did you even know those people existed? As the world becomes more globalized, there are more and more people who identify as more than one thing. Some identities are handed down, some are chosen. And part of Judaism as longevity is its openness to change. Many people think of Judaism as a religion, but it's also an ethnicity. Your Judaism, like your identity, belongs to you. Unknown Speaker 4:08 My name is Lou Mamari I use they them pronouns. And live in Winnipeg, Manitoba. And converting to Judaism. Unknown Speaker 4:20 How would you describe your identity? Unknown Speaker 4:22 I would say it's something that is very, both complex and complicated and something that I've struggled to define over my lifetime. More specifically I identify non binary which is something that took me a long time to settle on, I guess, for lack of a better term. I'm in this interesting position, where I'm half Arab and come from a Muslim family and I'm converting to Judaism. Which I don't think you hear of super often. I mean, I'm queer, which goes along with the non binary label. Um, I mean, yeah, there's lots, there's lots of other directions that I could take this in. But those are kind of the ones that took some grappling with. Unknown Speaker 5:26 One thing you might be noticing about Lou is that they don't really fit into any kind of box. They're white, and they're Arab. And they're going to be Jewish, but they went to a Christian Mennonite High School. They're dating a CIS woman, but they are non binary, which kind of inherently rejects the very existence of the box. They've spent a lot more time and energy than most people grappling with what identity even means. Basically, if anyone is going to choose for themselves, what group they're going to be a part of. It's Lou. Unknown Speaker 5:57 My mom was from a Christian family. My dad was from an observant Muslim family. They were both atheists, which is what kind of United them when I started dating. And then they just decided to send my brother and I to a Mennonite school. So religion was kind of always posed as a choice for me since both of my parents weren't practicing their family's religion. And growing up, I went to a Christian school, even though Neither of my parents were Christian. And they always told me like, you can be whatever you want, like, believe whatever you want, no one can tell you what to believe. Like your spirituality is your own kind of thing. I think the core of what they taught me is that your spiritual journey is your own. Unknown Speaker 6:48 So Lou grew up with this flexibility and their idea of identity, but very little exposure to Judaism, specifically outside of the eye for an eye type portrayals in their high school religion classes. They thought Judaism was just Christianity without the opportunities for atonement. And then they met Jana. Unknown Speaker 7:07 My name is Jana Eleazar. I guess I'm 25 I live in Winnipeg, Manitoba. What else? I don't know. What else do you want to know? Unknown Speaker 7:23 That's a good little starter. How do we know each other? Unknown Speaker 7:27 Um, I know you Emily. Because we've been best friends for what is it? 20 years almost now. Unknown Speaker 7:39 Almost. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 7:41 That's wild. Okay. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 7:43 I like sort of get like in my head about it every time we like put a number on it. I'm like, how have I even been alive for two decades? And known someone for that long? Unknown Speaker 7:53 I know Seriously? Unknown Speaker 7:56 How would you describe your identity? Unknown Speaker 7:58 Oh, God, okay. Um, I guess I'm a person that holds a lot of different identities. So I could say that I identify as a, like queer, Black, Jewish woman. And those are things that I think like make up who I am. It's sometimes a struggle to hold all of those things together. Yeah, but I also identify as someone who's born in the prairies and an Aquarius. identity's complicated. Unknown Speaker 8:48 So the person that introduced Lou to what Judaism is and can be with someone who didn't necessarily follow the, for lack of a better term template. Jana's mom is white and Jewish, but her dad is Black and grew up in a Christian family in Detroit. He felt a connection to Judaism from a young age and converted as a teenager. But that's a story for another podcast. How would you describe your relationship with Judaism specifically? Unknown Speaker 9:16 I think I would describe it as something that is evolving, and has evolved. I feel like I had a lot of like encounters with Judaism. From a young age my family like we were not religious, very, like observant and spiritual and like in a liberal way, but like Judaism was like always a big part of my upbringing. And it was like a definitely an important way that I understood myself and like in relation to the community. Is that as a part of? Yeah, it's something that's important to me for sure. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 10:07 There's something you said in there that I think is like maybe something about Judaism that a lot of people maybe don't understand is you described yourself as religious as not religious, but spiritual. Can you talk a little bit about that? Unknown Speaker 10:22 Yeah, um, so I feel like there's sort of like an idea with religion that you're either, well, not really in Judaism, but like, I think from the outside, it seems as if there's like, a dichotomy of like, you're either orthodox, like meaning that you can form very, like stringently to the rules, and you are very, like, observant in that way. Or you're not Jewish. Whereas I think like in reality, a lot of Jews exist on like, a spectrum of like, cultural identification with, with being Jewish. And I think the thing too, about that kind of identifier is like the spiritual but not religious. I think it also means like, not necessarily in like an organized sense, like maybe your connection to Judaism, as it stands, isn't connected to like the traditional like, going to synagogue and being a part of, I don't know, like a mosque group, like, I don't know, maybe it's something different than that kind of like traditional idea of what our parents thought of as like, observant versus not observant. But for me, I think Judaism is like important to me. And even though I definitely would not describe myself as like religiously observant, in the sense of being orthodox, I definitely like I don't know, I love to have people over for Shabbat dinner and I love to celebrate holidays, and I enjoy having a mezuzah on my door. I like I like participating in these observances. Unknown Speaker 12:05 So this is the idea of Judaism that Lou got to see flexible, open up to interpretation, essentially the opposite of what they were taught in Mennonite school. And not only that, but very well aligned with their own family's idea of what identity and culture could be. Unknown Speaker 12:23 Um, I mean, my real introduction to Judaism was with Jana, my partner's family. And they're quite observant and very progressive. So the people within the community that I was exposed to are largely those things as well. So I've been to many, many, like the majority of the synagogues in the city, and I'm extremely gender nonconforming physically. And I'm showing up like, you know, wearing men's clothes, and everyone's like, welcome here, like, you know, do you have any questions for us? Like, we're so glad that you could be here today. Unknown Speaker 13:14 And so imagine that you're a person who has spent all of this time trying to understand yourself, someone who was given the freedom to explore your identity outside of your home. You don't necessarily fit into the mold, but society presented to you at birth, and you enter this new space and find that you are welcome there. Wouldn't you want to stay? Unknown Speaker 13:38 So when was the first time you've ever thought about converting? Unknown Speaker 13:44 I would say my first pesah. Unknown Speaker 13:49 Lou's talking about a Jewish holiday called pesah, or Passover in English, which celebrates the escape of the Jewish people from slavery in Egypt. If you've ever seen the animated movie, Prince of Egypt, it's that to celebrate, we have a big dinner with all of these special prayers and symbolic foods called a Seder. Unknown Speaker 14:07 I hadn't decided then, but I just thought like, oh, this is so beautiful and so meaningful. And that was my first like, really strong connection to Judaism because, like, obviously, Jana's is a Judaic Studies teacher, so we're having this like, huge Seder and she's explaining like, there's a couple partners of Jana's cousins, were not Jewish, so she's going around the table, and she's really explaining everything in depth and why we do things and the significance of things and I just felt like, that was representative of my experience in the Winnipeg Jewish community, like people trying to be accessible to me. And I just thought like, all my holidays growing up in my kind of split faith slash secular family never had meaning. I mean, the meaning was, you know, we're family and we're all going to eat together and that's lovely to be in each other's company. Like, that's fantastic. But that can just be a Sunday dinner like that hasn't, that's no different than any other holiday. And I really valued that. These Jewish holidays all centered around a specific thing with a specific story and a specific reason why we celebrate them. Unknown Speaker 15:36 And then a few years later, Lou attended a service Kol Nidre with Jana's family. Kol Nidre happens the night before Yom Kippur, which is the holiest day in the Jewish calendar. It is many centuries old, and very, very beautiful. Unknown Speaker 15:52 During that prayer, I cried. And I just thought like, oh, my God, like I want to, I want this to be mine. Like, I want to be part of this. Like, this is literally bringing me to tears because I'm finding so much meaning in this. And I've never felt such a connection to any kind of, I guess, organized fee. Like I've always been a spiritual person, but I never, I guess for lack of a better word, like vibe with anything else. And just just since the beginning, everything I've learned about Judaism. It's been a really long road, and I've learned so much. And then I think it just all culminated in that point where I just thought, like, wow, okay, yeah, this is like, this is what I want to do. Unknown Speaker 16:47 So Lou had this amazing spiritual experience of finding home. But that's not what happens for most people is it? Most of us, myself included, find our identities in our homes. We grow up in a culture, we have different ways of connecting to those cultures. Sure. Maybe it's prayer or music or food or stories or just people in Jewish culture, as in a lot of others. All of that is often encapsulated in the figure of the mother. Traditionally, mothers nurture and cook and create the home their children grow up in. So I was curious about how Lou's mom felt about all of this. How would you describe your identity? Unknown Speaker 17:29 A mother, female, semi retired. I'm interested in a lot of things seeking I guess I'm seeking. Yeah, seeking a sort of, like spiritually seeking. Unknown Speaker 18:12 Okay, here's the twist. As Lou's relationship with Jana progressed, and Judaism became a more and more prominent part of their life, Janet became interested in Judaism too. Several months ago, she started dating a Jewish man from Israel. When we talked, she had actually just finished a zoom class through the synagogue, I went to growing up, called intro to Judaism. Did you grew up religious? Unknown Speaker 18:38 No, atheist, agnostic. Unknown Speaker 18:42 But you have this sort of interest in religion, obviously. Unknown Speaker 18:47 I would sneak and read of a Bible I found in the basement of my house under the covers. When I was like, in junior high, I would take a peek at and I didn't want anybody to see me. Unknown Speaker 19:05 Do you feel like you're a spiritual person? Unknown Speaker 19:08 Yes. Unknown Speaker 19:09 Yeah. Unknown Speaker 19:10 What does that mean to you? Unknown Speaker 19:12 I try to connect to God every day several times a day, in my heart. Unknown Speaker 19:23 I was really surprised by the depths of Janet's feeling about God and spirituality and religion. You can really hear a longing in her voice when she talks about this stuff. You can see why she wanted her kids to go to religious school why she wanted blue and their brother to know that faith was an option. she instilled that identity being a seeker in her children. How did you feel when Lou first told you that they were going to convert? Unknown Speaker 19:54 Um, I did it, I did expect it. I was happy for them. There was this little bit in me that I'm sort of embarrassed or ashamed to say that I felt that they were choosing Jana's family over my family in a way, just because I tend to be a bit of a jealous person. And I don't like that about myself. And I knew that it was a wrong way to think like, not a healthy way to think. But I missed them. Because there's been so many changes, I haven't seen Lou and Liz growing up, and I missed them so much. And I, I had to be just careful not to feel rejected. But I knew it wasn't rejecting me. But I mean, I just, I had to come to terms with some feelings. Well, except that I didn't give them, I didn't provide them with a basis of faith, so you know, I felt like I had fallen short, but I'm so relieved that they found something. And I believe that this is the right, the right thing for them. And so I'm really grateful, the more I learned about it, I'm kind of going, hey, I want to be a part of this. I want to be a part of this too. And then by joining myself, I can share something with them. And and that's so precious to me. Unknown Speaker 21:34 Listening to Janet talk about this stuff, something occurred to me that I suppose should have been obvious the whole time. Identity is about community. If we share an identity with someone we love, it brings us closer. So what happens when you love someone who's fundamentally different from us in some way? How do you bridge that gap? To answer those questions? I had to go to another mom, Jana's mom, Sherry. Okay, how would you describe your identity? Unknown Speaker 22:04 I would say, this has been heavily on my mind, actually, that question, mostly about my children. My identity is pretty simple. For me, well, not simple, but it's pretty straightforward. The identities that I've created for my children are anything but that has been weighing heavily on my mind. I know that doesn't really answer your question. But you know, I'm, I'm a woman, I'm, I'm a Jew. I'm Israeli. I'm Canadian. I'm a teacher. That's a huge part of my identity. I could go on and on daughter, wife. Unknown Speaker 22:43 Sherry and I had this conversation the day after the 2020 election was called. With the year we've had, and with Trump, soon to be out of office, it seemed like she had been thinking a lot about Jana and her brother, all the otherness they may have felt, that she never did. Unknown Speaker 22:59 My kids are biracial, American Canadian, Israelis, Jewish, and multiple other unique identities that they have. And I, I chose three of them for them. And most, like, this was just really weighing on me yesterday and it was kind of an epiphany, to be honest with you.Most people of colour to have no choice, because they are born that way. I chose that for my children. And and the last four years, I believe that has been very much a burden. And I didn't really feel like it was until then. Unknown Speaker 23:45 What Sherry is talking about is more or less the opposite of how Lou feels. Many, if not most people feel like their identities have been chosen for them. Some of those things, Judaism being one of them can be changed. But others you wear on your skin. Jana is Black, and she can never choose not to be. And that's something about being Jewish that is very different from other ethnic identities. We don't all look the same. There are Jews of every skin color from virtually every country on Earth. After the Holocaust, many Jewish people who escaped Europe chose not to be Jewish anymore, to free their children from the othering and persecution that they had faced. So while historically Jews have been treated as a race apart, we really live in this nebulous in between space. About halfway through this interview, Sherry told me that she prefers to say Jewish by choice instead of converted. I like this idea a lot, partly because the word conversion is just a little creepy. But also because people like Lou aren't the only ones choosing to be Jewish. All of us are. Unknown Speaker 24:57 Exactly. It's an it's a nation is It's a race. It's a culture, it's a language. It's, there's so many facets of it. I've always felt I am, you know, I mean, I'm a Judaic Studies teacher for 39 years now, my 39th year, and I always talk about the many, many windows, and doorways into Judaism. There's so many I remember, Emily, doing a project for shabbaton, many years ago, because I was very disturbed by hearing kids say, you know, if I don't keep kosher, and I don't, you know, observe Shabbat, then I'm not a good Jew. And that that was like, you know, I mean, it's a very simplistic way, but unfortunately, a lot of North American Jews who are not educated in Judaism, believe that, and I, we brainstormed and made this museum of Judaism. And there were literally 36 ways in, you know, art, music, camp, food. I mean, you know, it was politics, Israel, like there were literally almost 40 that I defined as windows and doorways into Judaism. And it just, it was life changing for these 11, 12 year olds. And I hope they carry that with them for the rest of their life. Because, yeah, like, you don't have to believe in God to be a Jew I mean, just that is like, I mean, I know that I would be problem. Unknown Speaker 26:16 As she mentioned, Sherry has been a Judaic Studies teacher for 39 years. She was my teacher, actually, in elementary school for a couple of years. And multiple points during our talk, she lapsed into teacher mode. It was kind of like walking into a time machine and being in grade five again. But there was one story she told me that really jumped out at me. Unknown Speaker 26:36 Funny, you should mention this, this makes Parashah, which is a portion of the of the Torah that we read instead of dog is called by era. And it contains this this very beautiful, beautiful story of Sarah, you will remember this Emily, it's when Abraham and Sarah are in their tents. And these three strangers, you know, appear and and Abraham goes out to greet them. And this whole scene is the epitome of the commandment to welcome guests. It's actually a commandment, it's not a suggestion. And it models of how it evolves, it models what we are supposed to do in terms of welcoming guests. And the thing that's fascinating is his tent, their tent is described as having all four sides open, which is a obvious symbol of of welcome, and an inclusion and acceptance. And when he sees these three strangers approaching, he actually runs to greet them and brings them to his home and you know, washes their feed and feeds them and you know, all those kinds of things. But so, that's kind of how I feel about Judaism is those four, four sides need to be open. And we need to accept anyone who's interested, willing or able to join us, for whatever reasons. Unknown Speaker 28:12 Okay, so tell me about like, things you remember, like events leading up to when Lou decided that they were going to convert for sure. Unknown Speaker 28:26 I'm gonna leave this on up to you. Unknown Speaker 28:28 Okay, all right. Unknown Speaker 28:31 What's your perspective on what happened? Unknown Speaker 28:34 I think it kind of came out of nowhere for me, because you did that thing that you do sometimes where you're like, so thinking about this thing. And you sort of like, pose it as if it's the first time you've thought about it, but it's actually the culmination of a thought process. But to me, it seems like the beginning of the thought process. So for me, I was kind of like, oh, okay. Um, yeah, I was sort of like, Unknown Speaker 29:03 I know it was a big deal. So I didn't really want to bring it up. If I hadn't put any thought into it. That's fair. So I think we just had like, a nice time last summer. And then we like spent so much time together. And I think we just felt really close in our relationship at that point. Unknown Speaker 29:25 Yeah. Unknown Speaker 29:27 And that marked our two and a half years. And I think it was just like, maybe a new level of intensity in our relationship where it was, it became like, okay, you're not just my partner. You're not just like, my partner for life. But you are my family like we are each other's family. Unknown Speaker 29:53 Yeah. Because I think talking about you, converting kind of like, sparked those conversations about like, what we want that family to look like and like jewishly but also otherwise. Which is which was really cool. Yeah, so like taking our relationship beyond just like our partnership and like, the way we like envisioned, ya our family looking. Unknown Speaker 30:25 I'm gonna cry. Unknown Speaker 30:31 When I hang out with Lou and Jana, I often feel like I'm witnessing the kinds of intimate moments that usually only happen in private. They love each other so much. They do everything together, including most recently law school. And as you might have noticed, their thoughts often bleed into each other like they're one person. As little kids, Jana and I used to talk about our crushes, like all little kids do. Lou was not the person we talked about back then, although that's mostly just because I didn't know Jana was queer. But Lou is exactly what Jana needs. Someone who's caring and nurturing but smart and critical. The two of them are different in many ways, but they complement each other perfectly. They are truly in sync. They're family. And if identity is about belonging, about a feeling of home about hearing that centuries old prayer and feeling like you're part of something bigger than I understand why Lou wants to become Jewish. Unknown Speaker 31:35 Okay, I'm gonna end on like a cute thing for feelings. To use the journalistic terminology. Jana who is Lou? Unknown Speaker 31:57 Um Unknown Speaker 31:57 Lou is my partner. The most supportive person I know. Unknown Speaker 32:16 And Lou, who's Jana? Unknown Speaker 32:16 I didn't shed a tear just now. Jana is my being. She's the person that sees inside of me and, you know, loves and understands me. Never ceases to surprise me with how wide she's willing to open her mind. I don't know. She's just, I just see her, you know, with her friends and I just see her be as amazing to all of her friends that she is to me and it's just like, a superhuman power. Unknown Speaker 33:12 Well, there we have it. Episode One in the books. A beautiful love story about Jana and Lou, produced by our very own executive producer, Emily Morantz. Special thanks to our associate producer Manuela Vega artwork by Ben Shelley theme music composed by John Powers, and I've been your host Gracie Brison. And of course, we have to thank Amanda Cupido a jungle of houseplants. And remember, fitting in is overrated.