Unknown Speaker 0:00 Hockey. It's Canada's national game. But unfortunately, the hockey industry in Canada doesn't reflect the diversity of its fans. In this episode, producer Daniel Centeno tells a personal story about his experience as an Asian sports fan, and how he's navigating the overwhelming whiteness of the culture around hockey, as he tries to be one of the chosen few who gets to write and talk about it for a living. This is Same Difference. Unknown Speaker 0:50 It's June 7, 2003. I'm sitting in my living room with my sisters and parents. One of the only nights I'm allowed to stay up past 10pm on a school night. It's game six of the Stanley Cup Finals. The Mighty Ducks of Anaheim must win to force a game seven against the powerhouse New Jersey Devils. After finishing seventh in the Western Conference, the hopes of Anaheim's surprising Cinderella run and rest on the shoulders of team captain Paul Kariya. Unknown Speaker 1:17 The odd man rushes are piling up. The Devils with five odd man rushes nonrandomized handle the sonza Cora kicks it out got it back here side Kariya, Kariya the fans want one. Kariya scores! Unknown Speaker 1:41 There are two milestones that Asian Canadian hockey fans will remember in the early 2000s. First, it was national pride when Team Canada won the gold medal at the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics. Unknown Speaker 1:54 Down with Kariya and up the defenseman's, gets in the zone, passes in by Kariya but what a play by Mario Lemeiux receiving the glass and allowing them Unknown Speaker 2:12 The second is the player Paul Kariya. The Japanese Canadian superstar was part of that Olympic team and is the player every fan like me look up to Kariya's dominance is arguably the reason I cheer for the ducks to this day. Despite never visiting California. Unknown Speaker 2:27 In 1993, he was the first player ever drafted by this franchise. As soon as Paul entered the NHL everyone in the hockey world knew about the Mighty Ducks because of him. Unknown Speaker 2:38 in a sport dominated by white players, it was Kariya who I idolized and looked to as a source of belonging. Hockey is kind of a sport and is valued as a source of national identity. After all, if there's room for someone who looks like Kariya, in the NHL and on the Canadian Olympic team, and there's a place for a fan that looks like me, a half Filipino half Chinese boy who wants to be part of our national game in any capacity. Unknown Speaker 3:01 I don't know exactly how I got involved in hockey because neither one of my parents were ever from hockey backgrounds. But obviously coming from Canada there's a lot of interest in hockey in Vancouver. It's really big sport. Unknown Speaker 3:12 Love of hockey grows as I get older, but it becomes abundantly clear to me that Kariya superstardom let alone his presence in the game is an outlier. Kariya retires 2010 11 points and 11 game shy of 1000 due to concussions that cut his Hall of Fame career short. After stints in Colorado, Nashville and St. Louis, his career his contributions to the Mighty Ducks and Team Canada that I will forever cherish in my childhood. With this absence from the game, there is no emerging Asian superstar to take his place. Unknown Speaker 3:42 This franchise was built on the shoulders of this 5' 10 superstar and he will always be remembered for being a mighty of a Mighty Ducks. Unknown Speaker 3:59 Fast forward to the university years and I'm studying to one day become a sports journalist. Hockey remains my number one sport, but its cracks begin to show stories of a long standing toxic culture, racism and bullying emerge. Suddenly on a wider scale Canada's game has challenged. ADoes this sport truly reflected to diverse fan base? Can I as an Asian Canadian ever think it is possible for me to build a career in hockey media when I can recall one or two prominent Asian journalists across North American Hockey coverage in my lifetime? Unknown Speaker 4:28 for TSN.ca, I'm John Lu back. Unknown Speaker 4:32 What are my chances? The signs are usually subtle as you get older. You're always the ethnic minority among your hockey watching friends. You start a hockey podcast and you're one of their few non white hosts. Your racialized friends feel more comfortable watching baseball and basketball. Two sports not labeled as quote unquote a rich white boy sport. Suddenly, as one incident is reported in the news, the serious details about the game's culture are revealed. Unknown Speaker 5:02 developing news out of Calgary starting flames coach Bill Peters following allegations of racist comments towards the Akim Aliu when he played with the HLS Rockford icehogs. Back in the 2009 10 season. For coloured person or someone a minority does something the same as maybe a Caucasian person is looked at a little bit differently. What they what they were, how they act, what kind of music they they listened to how they speak. Unknown Speaker 5:26 When I look back to my fond memories of national pride and the Mighty Ducks, I started to think, why have the negative aspects of hockey culture remain so silent to the wider community? Perhaps it's my fandom from a distance or my own passion of its players and teams. They kept me in the dark. But I would like to know why hockey's culture in his current state has been nurtured for so long. I'm Daniel Centeno. Today I explores hockey's culture far removed from my childhood nostalgia debunked as a source of national identity. As I continue my journey as an Asian Canadian journalist aiming to one day work in the sports industry, I gather insight from a former Junior player, a sports psychology expert and a racialized hockey journalist about the realities of the games culture and how positive change can happen moving forward. Unknown Speaker 6:21 You know, the picture of me in my article that's like the cover with with hockey flags in the background, like my grandparents used to have that picture in their home with, you know, with my cousins, and you know, all my hockey pictures on my cousin's hockey pictures. And I remember looking at my cousins who, who's white and looking at his hockey pictures and thinking like, that looks like a real like, Canadian, like hockey kid, you know, and I looked at mine, and I was like, this, ice doesn't look like that. Like, this looks like out of place almost. And that was just how I perceived myself. And it's really, really damaging, right? Because like you have to navigate where do I fit in this identity that is so closely tied to the sport and I don't, I don't look what like what it traditionally looks like. What does that say about me? What does that say about my place in this country? What does that say about me belonging to Canada and me being Canadian. Tyler Griffin is a student journalist at Ryerson University, who has had first hand experience with the highs and lows of hockey culture. Playing in junior hockey for the Smiths Falls Bears in the central Canada Hockey League. Griffin recalls fond memories of camaraderie with his teammates. However, he remembers the key moments when he felt like an outsider for being half Thai. Griffin chronicled his experiences in his feature published in Huffpost, Canada, Unknown Speaker 7:38 You know, it's it's weird, like, I definitely remember it kind of making that switch around, like, you know, 11 or 12 was when people kind of really started to focus on the fact that I was like, Asian, and I was, I looked a bit different. But uh, you know, it was kind of it was very innocent at that point, right. Like, we were so young, and I don't think anyone really knew the nuances of like, what these things meant, and I don't think it like, really affected me then because it was all people that you know, I, it didn't feel menacing, and it didn't feel like it was something that was trying to other me, and I still had these very, very deep friendships with these people. And I went to school with them, and in a way, like, I remember, you know, like, when I was, like, 11, or 12, like my friends, you just call me like Asian instead of my name, and they just be like, Yo Asian and stuff. And like, I thought it was funny. And like, I was like, Oh, cool. This is something that like, people know me for and people kind of like identify me with and it makes me stand out and it wasn't a bad thing then. So as you know, I was a kid, I didn't know much about racism or identity or anything like that. Unknown Speaker 8:43 While his race was pointed out by his white friends and teammates, Griffin did not mind. However, once the competition became more fierce and players entered AAA hoping to break into the Ontario Hockey League. Griffen remembers insulted, racist acts becoming more normalized and pointed. Unknown Speaker 8:58 And then I think it was about like, 13 or 14, no, it was like 12 or 13. Basically, once you hit like AAA, and you start getting like really serious about it, and people start thinking like, you know, like, you let's let's start thinking about playing like for a career and let's start putting our kids in like hockey camps and then playing in the spring and, you know, it starts really ramping up because you're you're approaching the age around 16 when you're looking at like the OHL draft and that's the next step up before you make this a career right. And that was one kind of thing started getting a bit mean like I remember you know, we you know, we were at that age where boys were kind of just aggressive in general but it started to get a bit nasty and I think that just came with the game getting increasingly competitive and it went from something that was like a fun little quirk and like a fun little joke to like, you know, the this this makes you different and like, I think that a lot of people saw that as a way to like, get ahead in the game right like, get let's, let's put this kid down and he might not have as good of a chance. And then I might kind of be able to get it. Like, it's not that literal, right. But it kind of, that's kind of what the subtext felt like. And it felt like that's, that's when it switched, if that makes sense. Unknown Speaker 10:12 In his Huffpost article, he Chronicles a mistaken own goal, which was angrily met with a racial slur from his goalie who was a childhood friend. Unknown Speaker 10:20 That was actually like a goalie who I played with for years, and was a very, very good family friend of mine. And, you know, I still, to an extent, consider him family, even though we haven't talked in a while, like, we just grew up together. And he grew up in rural, you know, rural Ottawa and I don't really blame him for saying that, and I don't blame him for how he behaved and I would never ever turn him away if he ever reached out to me like, and I think that just kind of goes to show like, how close it was like, it wasn't all the way it was, it actually was way more from within my own team and within my own teammates, so it ever was from opponents, you know, because you just spent so much time with them in the locker room and, and so much time, kind of just joking around to tournaments and stuff. But yeah, it did manifest some sometimes in really, really nasty ways. And I remember like, walking away, sometimes and feeling like, okay, that felt different, you know, when I didn't have the words to kind of like, express, you know, like these, these very complex ideas of racism and microaggressions in hockey. Like I remember just walking away and being feeling like, that didn't feel funny, or like that, that didn't feel friendly. Like that just felt like I didn't, I didn't, I didn't feel great after that. And it's weird, like, you're just you're just as young kid, and you're, you have no idea why you feel that way. And you kind of just like, put in your back pocket because it's your friends, right? It's your hockey team. And, and then you love the game and you love your teammates, and you do anything for them. So it's a really, really weird mix of like, I, I can't distinguish where this is, these are my friends and these are people that are really harming me and harming how I see myself. That is probably the most harmful idea that I've ever had, you know what I mean, and then I really, really internalize that. And for most of my life, from that point on, like, I thought I was white, and I tried to be white, and I tried to be as white as I could and, you know, not not just even in appearance, but in how I spoke and what I said and what I talked about, and I just fell so far into that identity that eventually I was like, I don't even feel like myself. Like I feel like kind of a shell of, of, of these other kids who who are really, really into this, but I don't feel like I have my own distinct identity. And I feel like I'm just doing this to, to get by and to, to not be this huge target, you know what I mean? And I was, I always kind of had different interests on the fringe, like I was a big reader, I was I was really tired. And I was really into music. And I a lot of that was so stifled by the fact that it was seen as pussy shit. And you know, like, people would make fun of me for it. And it wasn't manly, and it wasn't masculine. So I really, really pushed those interests to the side. And at one point, I just didn't even recognize myself, like I had my flow. And I had my cap and I had my spirit issues. And I was like, who am I? Like, who am I doing this for? You know, and that realization is, I'm glad that I came to it. But it was a years later. And it was it was after like years of looking at myself and seeing someone different than who was actually there. Unknown Speaker 13:31 Griffin decides to leave hockey at the age of 17 after about four seasons in AAA, much to the dismay of his agent and prospective teams at the next level, including a US college. He remains contend with the decision embracing his other interests and his race in ways he felt were sheltered away in hockey culture. Unknown Speaker 13:48 I think a big a big thing that happened was I basically just left the community and I started doing other things. And I started meeting other people and, and I and then I moved to Toronto, and it was a totally, totally different experience like living downtown from from where I lived and the people I grew up with. And I just started to realize, like when I got there, I was like, what this is like, this feels better. Yeah, like there's this. It's like I went to Ryerson in my first year and I just met all these very diverse people who were very proud of their background. And at that point, I like, you know, I had left and I had left the game for different reasons than I think I did. Like when I look back on it now, you know, at the time, I just was like this, this just I'm just not super passionate about this anymore. And like I feel like I've kind of run my course. But looking back like I think it was very clear that there was something about the culture that was making me really really uncomfortable and pushing me away from it because I didn't feel like I belonged in it like you know, no other kids that were at the high level were being treated like in a similar way as to me and like the other kids who who didn't look quite Unknown Speaker 14:54 As the current online editor of Ryerson Eyeopener newspaper, Griffin continues to build his career in journalism. Looking back on the game, he wishes he was more outspoken against the toxic aspects of hockey and offers advice for racialized players dealing with similar experiences. Unknown Speaker 15:10 I think you have to be loud. You know, if I if I could talk to you a kid that was in my position, I would say, when when this kind of stuff happens, like when you know people, people on the ice, you know, they make some slight about your eyes or you know, your your skin color, or you know, your family or where you come from, or your your name, even be loud about it. Like, don't, don't sit quietly with that, like, tell people like yell at people, fight with people, like drop your gloves on the ice and fight them and don't let that pass and make a big deal out of it. Because you have every single right to and you have every single right to belong in that game. And you have every single right to play it without having to face those things the same way that white kids don't have to face those things. Unknown Speaker 16:01 Dr. Stacy Lorenz of the University of Alberta echoes Griffin sentiments about malicious behaviors and toxic views that persist in hockey culture. He's an expert on sport and social issues, national identities and violence in hockey. Unknown Speaker 16:19 I think there has been some recognition of issues in hockey cultures, particularly around race and racism in hockey culture. There's been some growing awareness around other forms of abuse in hockey culture, but I think there's still a long ways to go. And I think there's still a reluctance within the hockey establishment, if I can use that term, to well, first of all, acknowledge how deeply rooted some of those issues are. And secondly, to actually enact plans and take concrete action. Instead of just these kind of , I'd call them performative kinds of displays that try to sell us that on the idea that they're attacking the problem. But really, if you dig a little bit deeper, a lot of it is for show and public relations. And there's still not enough actual awareness and actual change that's taking place. Unknown Speaker 17:31 Hmm. Can you give me examples of these, I guess, things that have been happening just for appearance? Unknown Speaker 17:37 Yeah, sure. I mean, I think the NHL the way that the NHL handled their return to play this summer and some of the issues around the Black Lives Matter movement, especially in comparison to what other leagues have done, was really insufficient. Unknown Speaker 17:55 As for the NHL, ESPN reports that there will be no playoff games tonight. The NHL played as scheduled last night, even as the events unfolded in the NBA. There were two games scheduled for tonight Flyers-Islanders in one, and Canucks Golden Knights in the other. Unknown Speaker 18:13 It was it was far too vague, you know, rather than coming being front and center with, you know, like other leagues with Black Lives Matter, they kind of vaguely talked about racism and, you know, we skate for Black lives. But that was one of, you know, 100 things that people were skating for. And some of them were just, you know, empty, not things that weren't meaningful, or didn't relate to true social issues and problems. So I found that that was one element of it. And also, they really put far too much responsibility on individual players in particular, individual players of colour to bear the burden of the league's response. So you had Matt Dumba making an incredible statement when the NHL returned to play, but really kind of being left out on out on his own and not fully supported by I felt the league as a whole. Unknown Speaker 19:33 I know, firsthand, as a minority playing the great game of hockey, the unexplainable and difficult challenges that come with it. The hockey diversity lines and the NHL, want kids to feel safe, comfortable and free minded every time they enter an arena. Unknown Speaker 19:54 Matt Dumba, a half Filipino defenseman, for the Minnesota Wild is an athlete I continue to cheer for and whose career I follow closely. Not only is he open about his Asian, Canadian Heritage and the sacrifices his immigrant mother made for his playing career, but he has become an outspoken voice for racialized players and fans. He's a founding member of the Hockey Diversity Alliance, an organization dedicated to their slogan of change hockey culture. Unknown Speaker 20:31 Ever since Dumba entered the NHL in 2013, it has been a breath of fresh air to my fandom. Not since Kariya, do I see an Asian player have this kind of platform in the NHL. It is still too early to tell what Dumbo's playing legacy will be. But it's working promoting diversity and awareness in hockey continues to be inspiring to me, and I'm sure to many other racialized fans. Unknown Speaker 20:52 And so the Hockey Diversity of Alliance offers us something different, where they're front and centre in critiquing the league and its responses and the fact that, you know, there's, there's been recognition that that might actually be possible. And that might actually be a good thing, instead of just that immediate resistance to even acknowledging things. I think that's been a positive step as well. So I think it's been a learning process just as an outsider looking in for the organization as well. But I think they've definitely also played a very important role in, in trying to put those issues at the forefront. They haven't been scared to criticize and speak out. And that's been refreshing and I think bodes well for the future, because far too often and one of the things that I've noted in some of my own research, hockey culture in particular is very resistant to people speaking out on any issue, Unknown Speaker 22:06 When you're singularly focused on a goal, it's kind of scary what you'll accept, to try and achieve that goal. And if you talk, and if you if you talk too much in the hockey world, and you ask too many questions, they don't like that. Unknown Speaker 22:23 Former NHL forward, Dan Carcillo, was a main figure last year who highlighted the rabid hazing and abuse in junior hockey. In his interview with CBC, he chronicled the violence he experienced during his time with the OHL Sarnia Sting. Unknown Speaker 22:37 they'd like you to be a good little soldier and to do what they say, and if there's pushback or questions, you won't succeed. Unknown Speaker 22:48 They're still unwilling to recognize that there are particular ways in which racism or other forms, forms of physical or emotional abuse. And again, I think all these things are related. They really tried to deflect those by by suggesting that those are problems in society. And while I, you know that, you know, they're those are societal problems, they're not hockey problems. And while of course, there's a large degree of truth to that, I mean, these aren't problems that are isolated to sport or to hockey. But I think that there are ways that hockey culture makes those, encourages those those sorts of things, and discourages close examinations of those problems, or still even a willingness to acknowledge that there are specific ways that hockey encourages and allows some of those things to flourish. Unknown Speaker 23:55 Dr. Lorenz provides the details of hockey culture in its present state. Negative aspects of the game are abundantly clear, but it believes that change can happen for the better. From his research, he believes hockey will need to become more welcoming to minorities, the game wants to reflect Canada authentically. Unknown Speaker 24:11 And again, you see that in all sorts of places. So there are there are those who, you know, resist the idea that well, well, you know, when we have these horrific examples of sexual abuse or initiations and that's kind of thing in hockey. Often again, they're it's sort of deflected by saying, well, those are those are widespread problems in society, you know, ignoring the fact that you know, the, the Bantam draft and hockey that takes players far away from home and uprootsfrom their parents at a quite young age. The fact that coaches have still have so much power within that culture, the you know, the, what I would what I mentioned before about the sort of, you know, you don't say anything kind of mentality, you just take it, that sort of thing, you know, all of those are heightened by the culture of hockey. And so I think it would be important to recognize the unique ways that hockey is problematic. And then, of course, you know, there's broader issues at play here as well. But that would be an important step, I would hope to see within the NHL and junior leagues and all the way down, because they're still, that's still missing, in my, in my view. Unknown Speaker 25:40 So a lot of things too, is what people bring up is diversity, not just with the players, but also with like management or even media personnel are these kind of tangible steps that hockey at any level can take? Unknown Speaker 25:55 It isn't just the players on the ice, it's the whole of the whole structure around them, and you've hit on it from team personnel to media, those who cover the game and so forth. I mean, it again, speaks to sort of the, the ways that I think all these things are connected across so many different areas. And that's another example of that. And I mean, the other thing is that all of those things would be in the business interest of the league as well to, to actually helped them to grow their market and so forth, and to appeal to a wider range of fans. And to recognize that they do have fans already in those groups who may be, you know, want just want to be more included, and would also bring other people like them into the culture. You know, and it could be reframed in more positive ways. So rather than a defensive retreat to nostalgia and the past, and the way hockey used to be. Unknown Speaker 27:01 Y ou people love you, they come here, whatever it is, you love our way of life, you'll love our milk and honey, at least you could pay a couple of bucks for poppies or something like that. Unknown Speaker 27:12 Former Hockey Night in Canada host Don Cherry being one example of how hockey used to be an example of the culture many fans still follow. Unknown Speaker 27:21 I mean, there's dangers and over mythologizing it but why can't hockey be more inclusive and be more reflective of contemporary Canada and of the wide range of people who are in Canada instead of just a small group of those people? I think there's some danger in mythologizing that that automatically we think, oh, well, when there's some semblance of diversity there, you know, suddenly we're, we've arrived. And this sport is now you know, multicultural and appeals to so many more people. So we have to be careful not to mythologize that part of it as well. Hockey still needs to wake up a lot more to that idea of embracing, embracing a wider group than they have historically. Unknown Speaker 28:18 Hockey is a great game. But it could be a whole lot greater. And it starts with all of us. Unknown Speaker 28:31 In terms of my career ambitions, and taking the time to contemplate whether the landscape of hockey is even for me, sports journalist Erica Ayala reassures me that there's room for racialized journalists like us. She's a Black Latina journalist producing stories that highlight women and persons of colour and hockey. Unknown Speaker 28:53 As someone who again, who identifies as Black Latina, I don't work with a lot of people that look like me, and not even just just as you know, someone who's a person of colour, but also as a woman. I work you know, I do a lot of work in basketball, particularly the WNBA and that's a women's basketball league. That's a 80% of the players themselves are Black women and women who identify as Black. But that's not what the media core looks like, when I cover international hockey, so I've covered the rivalry series, and I've gone to the NCAA Tournament. There are not a lot of women of colour there not a lot of women that cover the sport. So while I can't say that my personal experience has been one that I feel has been challenging, because of my gender or because of my race and how I identify, I, I noticed that the space is not full of people who look like me. Unknown Speaker 29:58 As a pioneer, covering women's talk at all levels in the United States, her work is featured in The New York Times the athletic, SB Nation and Fansided. She recalls her initial fandom for the game was cheering for the Metropolitan Riveters, a women's pro hockey team and witnessing the play ofUS stars Blake Bolden, a Black player and Julie Chu an Asian player. From then on, she wanted to cover these racialized female athletes who are not garnering the attention she felt they deserved. Unknown Speaker 30:26 Because I didn't see a lot of women of colour in the sport when I had the opportunity to write features I would write about Blake Bolden or Julie Chu, or, you know, thinking about Kelly Babstok. And I would write about women of colour just because that that was those were stories that I didn't, I didn't know existed, and I thought should be told. Unknown Speaker 30:50 In her New York Times piece, Ayala reports on the racist attacks against New York Rangers prospect K'Andre J. Miller during a fan zoom meeting, Miller was sent persistent messages of the N word. Ayala later said racialized fans in New York were not surprised by the attack on Miller. And he commented on their own safety games and events. Unknown Speaker 31:09 Experiences that people of color have in hockey, or for whatever reason, not turning into better policies to protect players in the case of K'Andre Miller, but also not to protect fans. You know, fans talk about and in that piece, I was able to quote fans, talking about how they don't necessarily feel safe when they go to Madison Square Garden. And, you know, whether you want to say that that is something that is perceived by an individual or not, I think what fans of colour in the hockey space are saying is that when we experience racism, when we talk about racism and hockey, we want our experiences to be heard, to be understood. And to be, you know, part of the the solution and part of the change. My interpretation is that there are things that frighten people when it comes to talking about race and racism. And those are things that people of colour have had to get over. Because we have to be equipped and prepared to at any point in time and for any reason, and usually not a very good one, to defend ourselves to protect ourselves, or to validate our existence in a space. And that is not a lived experience of every person in the hockey community. And I think that those who maybe are not forced to think about race and racism on a daily basis, have to open themselves up to understanding and realizing that there are things that they can change, about their approach with that will make the hockey community more cohesive, more welcoming and inclusive. And I'm not exactly sure why that seems to be a contentious issue. But it does seem as though that is for some people. And once we can get over that hurdle. Yes, absolutely. I think the hockey community can change. And I think we have seen that there has been some change. But there has to be a willingness to as Black girl Hockey Club would say, and as founder, Rene Hess would say, to get uncomfortable, and that's exactly what they have their campaign now the get uncomfortable campaign. And so I think hockey needs to commit to getting uncomfortable. Unknown Speaker 33:46 I justwanted to share that I took the Black girl Hockey Club get uncomfortable pledge. Unknown Speaker 33:50 My goal as now is to listen, learn and support the black Unknown Speaker 33:54 and bipoc Unknown Speaker 33:54 communities to make hockey culture Unknown Speaker 33:56 welcoming. While she believes hockey culture has the potential to change, she remains critical about the Hockey Diversity Alliance. she appreciates their work but says it should be more inclusive and open to other areas of the game, including women's hockey. Unknown Speaker 34:11 The Hockey Diversity Alliance. I in theory, I think has a lot of promise. I will admit that as a woman, there are some things that are that leave me wanting when it comes to the Hockey Diversity Alliance. And one of those things is that I do think that it lacks gender diversity. And it also lacks ethnic diversity from those players that have been listed. And why is that important? You know, I can make assumptions that the Hockey Diversity Alliance is meant to be for NHL players by NHL players and that's fine. But when you use a term when you use the terminology Hockey Diversity Alliance, for me at least that that seems like a place that should be inclusive of women. But even if even if, again, it's for NHL players by NHL players, I would argue that women in hockey spaces and women's hockey fan or excuse me, women that are hockey fans, NHL fans have long been also talking about maybe some of the sexism even if it's just in, you know, language that is acceptable to use, or, you know, homophobic language that is used, the hockey fans have been talking about these things as well. I mean, when I entered the hockey community, you know, almost six seasons ago now, those are things that I became aware of very, very quickly that, you know, they were brought to my attention. And, you know, I noticed that that was part of the conversation very quickly. So, I would like to see the Hockey Diversity Alliance find its footing in some of those conversations as well. And I do think that, you know, NHL players can be champions for that conversation. But again, I would like to see them expand the horizons and even if they don't add women, players, so PWHPA players or NWHL players who are in the professional ranks on the women's hockey side, I mean, again, I'll go back to Blake Bolden or Tammy Granado, Hayley Wickenheiser. These are women who were elite, hockey players, are elite hockey players and work in the NHL. I think there should be room to consult and get their guidance when it comes to the Hockey Diversity Alliance. And there also are ways to challenge and motivate the Hockey Diversity Alliance to think even bigger and more long term and think about greater impact. Unknown Speaker 36:50 Moving forward, she's optimistic that a new generation of sports journalists, including myself, want to cover hockey. She believes that the stories on racialized players, policies and hockey culture need to be covered. Her advice is to remain committed to being an advocate in journalism. Unknown Speaker 37:06 Well, first of all, I think it's amazing like that terminology, people coming in with that lens is extremely important. You know, sometimes I get asked the question, you know, do I feel that there's room for advocacy in journalism, and I was actually speaking to someone else, actually, from Ryerson and I said, well, it depends. It depends on the type of media that you want to do. So my overall advice to those coming into journalism who know that they want to bring that, as you said, you know, that racialized lens is that there's absolutely space for it. It's absolutely a necessity for journalism, because my my interpretation of journalism is that you are, you're telling a story and to tell a good compelling story, you have to look at it from multiple angles, and pick and prod and, and ask questions. And there are a lot of people that want to see things when it comes to how race is discussed, and how to eradicate racism from hockey. There's a lot of people that want that, and not enough outlets or organizations, teams, leagues that are willing to, you know, really carry the banner and take up the mantle. So there's absolutely a space for critical thinking and, you know, really good journalism when it comes to when it comes to talking about race and racism and hockey. Unknown Speaker 38:35 She hopes hockey lives up to the recent slogans that promote diversity. On the surface, the messages are there, but the game requires more grassroot changes to validate the efforts. Unknown Speaker 38:45 What I do hope that the hockey community will do is listen to BIPOC players, fans, journalists, and trust us and believe us when we say that there are challenges to us doing our respective jobs because of the lack of a critical conversation about race and racism. And it behooves us all and certainly behooves the future of the sport to sort that out. And to make hockey, as the NHL slogan says, for everyone. Unknown Speaker 39:25 Hockey is for everyone. Hockey is for everyone. Hockey is for everyone. Hockey Unknown Speaker 39:29 is for everyone. Unknown Speaker 39:35 Get things going. That's very capital. Roberts who wants to pick any scores. Unknown Speaker 39:43 Nick Robertson with his first National Hockey League goal and it's three nothing Toronto, Jimmy Unknown Speaker 40:01 Another emerging Asian player makes headlines this time it's someone on my local Toronto Maple Leafs. Nick Robertson, a half Filipino forward looks to be part of the future on the team and another Asian player to look out for. The numbers are small, but I have hope in him and many other young prospects of Asian decide coming up in the ranks. Let's hope this steady growth continues. Unknown Speaker 40:22 or players to select from on sound, Nick Suski, Unknown Speaker 40:26 removes job. Unknown Speaker 40:37 From these conversations, I have a clear picture of my career ambitions. Hockey still has a long way to go before its culture can truly change and reflect the diverse fan base that exists in Canada. I no longer view hockey as an explicit aspect of my national identity, but I believe it can become a catalyst for inclusion. My nostalgia for the Mighty Ducks, Paul Kariya, Team Canada and late night playoff runs still fuel my passion for hockey. However, I understand now what it takes to cover the deeper stories beyond what is seen on TV, the puff pieces and the game scores. There are the negative aspects of the culture that require extensive revamping and development at all levels of the game. Hockey is not where it needs to be for all Canadians to enjoy right now. But the conversations and calls for positive change are getting louder. As the game finds itself at a crossroads, I recognize that my voice in the game matters. Now as a student journalist and in my future career. Unknown Speaker 41:40 Oh, the good old hockey game. Let's make it a more inclusive place for all of its fans and players. Thanks to Daniel Centeno for sharing your story. And thanks to our executive producer Emily Morantz, associate producer Manuela Vega, artwork by Ben Shelley theme music composed by John Powers. I've been your host Gracie Brison. And of course huge shout out to Amanda Cupido, a hockey stick. And remember, fitting in is overrated.