0:00 Ladies and gentlemen, 0:01 can I please have your attention? Cannonball! 0:14 This is The Dating Pool. 0:16 The show that takes a look at life, love and connections 0:19 and jumps into the deep end. I'm Miriam Valdez Carletti. 0:22 And I'm Cas Boivin. 0:23 And on today's show a piece about the Jewish dating app, JSwipe. 0:27 We also talked to some people about just how intimidating dating apps can seem for those who've never used them, 0:32 As well as some dating app horror stories from Toronto area women. 0:36 And finally, the story of a salsa dancing class, it's matching partners in dance as well as love. 0:41 But first cast do you think men and women can ever just be friends? 0:45 You mean like with When Harry Met Sally. I mean, yeah, probably that's been my experience. But how about you? What do you think? Do you think platonic relationships are possible between two single people? 0:56 You know what? I don't think so. I think if the connection is strong enough, feelings are just going to happen. Our first piece from Eden Middlemen discusses just that. She talked to two people who've tried and had mixed success. Can two people form a relationship without deeper feelings getting in the way? Let's find out. 1:15 I am convinced that people who are attracted to a specific sex cannot be in a platonic friendship with that so called sex. My name is Leo Mian Hilou. I'm 20 years old, I am a University of Guelph student. So I want to talk today about a topic that has affected me my entire life. Something that I was very convinced that I had a very clear outlook on. And as I grew and matured, I very quickly understood that I was wrong. The level of attraction and closeness definitely interferes with just a platonic friendship and therefore it is very, very difficult for females and males to be friends. So in high school, I met a really good guy friend of mine, Tyler. And so we became very close very quickly. In grades nine and 10 it was very platonic, it was just very much a regular friendship. But as we grew older, and we got even closer, and we started spending more, one on one time, I saw his behavior change. It was Valentine's Day, and I had told him that I was going to go see a movie with some friends. And that got canceled and so he phoned me and he said, do you want to go see the movie with me? And I said, sure, no problem. But I made it very, very clear to him, we're going just as friends. He insisted on picking me up, he insisted on buying me flowers. He got very upset when he showed up two minutes late to my house and for the rest of the night, he was very, very grumpy. in a bad mood, I confronted him. And I asked him why he was acting this way. And he said, I take the state very seriously. When he said the word date, it very much had a serious impact on me. And I took a step back, I tried to assess the situation. And I said to him in a really nice way, you know what, Tyler, I'm very sorry, that you thought this was a date, I tried to make it very clear that it was not. But you have to understand that, you know, we are just friends. Even though I made it so very clear that we are just friends, he persisted, and he didn't accept it. And I think that it gets to a point where the, you have to understand that the friendship is lost, and there is no recovering it and there's no going back. Because you're in too deep, and the feelings are too strong. There's a love of friendship and a love of a relationship. And I think that it's very, very important to distinguish the two and understand when you cross that line. And that's when I right away understood, he has now crossed that line. And I started realizing that once I got a boyfriend and prom came around, originally, we were supposed to go as friends. And I had now met someone and we got into an unhealthy relationship and so I decided to stop speaking to him. And I really don't know what is going on with Tyler nowadays. But it just goes to show how quickly and how deeply a friendship can become so much more and how important it is to realize sometimes a friendship will not just stay a friendship. And as much as I was a person to always say that's what it is. I quickly realized that is not the case. And it's something I need to understand and live with. And now I adjust accordingly with friendships with male friends that are straight when it comes to my personal life. You care about someone so much and you have such a great friendship. And then you realize I don't want this to be a friendship anymore. I want this to be more. And that's what happened with Tyler and unfortunately, we couldn't stay friends because it was affecting him in all aspects of his life. 5:00 The first about month or so I was almost terrified to get any sort of connection to any other girl that I don't already have almost starting something new like this person. My name is Mitchell Feinstein, I'm 21 years old am almost to be full time personal trainer and group exercise instructor. My old girlfriends, best friend, if you're staying with me, her best friend, we started talking again online. And we started just kind of chatting seeing how it is going and things started to roll quite naturally. We went to a concert, we had dinner, we went for a walk. And we spent a very, very full night together, we had such a great time we had we bonded so well. And it was very, very quick that we seem to get in such a close connection that I started getting feelings from her. I started feeling things like I didn't want to just be this friends we want I want it to kind of have an emotional and physical connection with her as in a relationship, a girlfriend and a boyfriend relationship. But from her perspective, I don't think it was there just as much. ?During that week, I actually started to talk to her again through the phone and through online like we originally doing trying to get her to try to go on a third date. She did not answer at all, there was absolutely no response. She only said at very first, yeah, I can get back to you. After that time, two weeks have passed, I've noticed on her online Instagram and Facebook page that her status has changed to my boyfriend is better than your boyfriend, signifying that she now has a boyfriend after all this. The main thing that I took away is is against they'll be open. But try to have more open communication. I think we were almost keeping things within ourselves. And we we weren't verbally communicating and we weren't just sharing enough, like share each other's feelings before that quick switch occurs. And that's when the two people might part or things might not mix. Because there may be something there, but the process is bringing it down. You don't know what the other person may be thinking. If you hide it all whatever the results may be during that conversation. I think it's completely healthy to to have it regardless. We saw each other twice in person and because of that connection, I have not talked to her since unfortunately. 7:10 It seems like there's a lot of guesswork when it comes to dating. 7:12 You know what you're right. If only we had some sort of technology to help us narrow down our dating pools to people with say common interests or values. 7:22 Well, you just described specialty dating apps. Ever heard of Jswipe? Yeah. You know what? I think I have a friend who has used it. 7:29 It's a dating app, kind of like Tinder targeted at Jewish people looking for love. David Greenberg, a colleague of ours who happens to be Jewish went on a quest to use the app to bring home a nice Jewish girl. 7:40 Oh, good for him. 7:41 Yeah. And he's decided to share his experiences with us, as well as his mother, apparently. 7:46 Oh, that should be interesting. 7:47 Yeah, let's listen in. 7:51 I want to see your profile. 7:52 Okay. I guess we'll record this. When I was a kid, my grandmother once told me that if I didn't marry a Jewish girl, I was out of the well. And she was only half joking. Because marrying within the faith is important to many Jews, even secular ones, entered Jace white, and have commonly referred to as Tinder for Jews, where fellow members of the tribe can swipe left and right to find their perfect match. In my quest to find my match, I decided to pull off a brave act all in the name of love. 8:26 It's my chicken. 8:28 I went to my mom's house for dinner, to talk about how I could find my own modern Jewish girl on Jswipe. Okay, so I'm gonna open up, open, open up Jswipe. So here's my intro. 8:43 I'm not that complicated. But, but. 8:47 So Mom, what did you think? 8:49 I think you could do a better job. I don't think you sell yourself on the profile. If I were to see that. 8:55 And then she moved on to my pictures. 8:57 Your your first picture is, I wouldn't choose it as my first picture, I would put something more casual as my first picture a fun casual picture, and then have the suit. 9:09 I'm regretting doing this. 9:10 Are you? I'm just you asked me to be honest and being honest. 9:13 She clearly wasn't impressed. So I flipped the script on her and asked her to describe the kind of woman she wants to see me with. 9:20 So for me, from a mother's perspective, a couple of key things one that the woman you're with, absolutely adores you and thinks that you are the best thing that ever happened to her to she really, really likes your mother. That would be great. That's very important to me. 9:37 And then I heard echoes of my grandmother. 9:40 I would like her to be Jewish. In our tradition, we share a lot of values and I think that it makes it easier in terms of view as a couple. Just the importance of family is that really one of the core values of what we do traditionally, but if you found somebody that you totally loved and adored I would certainly be open to whomever you brought home. From my perspective, I really want to have a great relationship with her. And I really want her to see her adore my son. 10:11 So my mom has more modern views than my grandmother. She also got curious about how swiping worked. 10:17 Can we look at women that you're gonna see? And if you say, right, and I say left, I think that would be really fun. 10:22 What about Alana? 10:25 Left. How about Mira? 10:27 She's 33. You see, that's why I hate Jswipe I don't like myself. You know, I don't like myself and Dave yet, because you get judgmental with Lauren, Lauren 33. And no. But this is what I don't like about it. I think you miss a lot by swiping back and forth. Because if you see somebody who's just a regular, average looking woman, and you see somebody who's beautiful, you know, left or right, left or right, we're gonna go. 10:56 Okay, so she might not like the idea of swiping, but she understood that a good profile would give her son a better chance at finding a Jewish girl. 11:04 You have one swipe, you know, you have one, one shot. I adore you, I think you're the best and so I want you to have the best profile out there. 11:12 So for my second brave act in the name of love, I tracked down a past date I had on Jswipe. I went out with Joelle about a year ago. It didn't work out, but I thought she would be able to guide me in my quest to find my modern Jewish match. 11:26 First impression of me? 11:27 I thought you were cute. And you look like your photo and so that was a good thing. I thought maybe you were a little nervous. I don't know why, speaking a little quickly and fiddling law fillings, speaking quickly with the menu. I think that's what it was. 11:46 So at the end of the date, what did you think? 11:48 I thought I wanted to see you again. We had a great conversation we had a lot, you know, to talk about. So I thought that was great. And then I wanted to know how important it was that I was Jewish. Believe me, there are so many of my past dates that I would say, oh my gosh, if only he was Jewish, this would be the ultimate perfect relationship. But fundamentally, it wasn't because there was a piece that for me that was missing. Dating a Jew is important for me to be able to raise in a household that has common understanding and values of how we've grown up snd for me, that was like the holidays. 12:29 (Singing) 12:32 It turns out that Joelle is in the minority. Over half of Jews who got married after 2005 were a non Jew. But that didn't stop her from giving me advice on how to find my Jewish match. 12:43 Respect yourself, stand by your values. Ask yourself what you're willing to compromise and what you're willing to learn, or what you're willing not to compromise, and stay strict and stay true to that I need to see a picture of you, family, no beach bod pictures. The other part is when you write something, it needs to be something balanced. It can't be like way too serious. But you need to have some sort of like your character needs to show through, the best thing to do is get with the friends friends have a big influence in Jewish community, as you know, like people are very cliquey in this community. So friends are really important. 13:19 That was really helpful. But my mom really nailed my biggest challenge in finding love. 13:24 I just think you're picky like your mother and Jswipe. You know, you always think there's something better out there for you. 13:33 So there you have it. Jswipe may be a quick and easy way for Jews to find love. But I think even my mom sees its potential and finding her son a Jewish match. As for my third brave act, well, you just listen to it. 13:53 Oh, I see. Mom always knows best. 13:56 Yeah, but I'm not exactly sure to my parents my profile on a dating app. 14:00 Oh, same if I had one. 14:02 So you've never used dating apps? 14:04 I have not. I've been in a committed relationship longer than dating apps have been around actually. 14:09 You know what? Neither have I. I've always been kind of skeptical of them. 14:13 Honestly, from an outside outsider's perspective, dating apps can look pretty intimidating. I talked to my girlfriend about it, as well as a friend who has similarly never used a dating app. Then I got the insider scoop from two friends who've been using them for the past couple years. 14:27 Alright, let's hear it. 14:29 Is there a part of you like curious about what it would have been like to be single and in the dating market over the past six years. 14:36 I'm kind of curious, but at the same time, it just looks like a heaping pile of garbage that's been lit on fire. 14:46 Modern dating, it's a bit of a trash fire, at least according to my girlfriend who you heard at the top. But it feels easy to take that perspective these days. If you read articles from the Huffington Post, Scientific American, they all say the same thing. Us Millennials are unhappy commitment folks, at least when compared to previous generations. Now, Kayla and I've been together for just over six years, which means our relationship predates what's probably become the biggest tech development in the dating world. There's a new matchmaking app catching fire across America. Tinder, an addictive matchmaking app released in August finds out who likes you and nearby and connects you with them. If Kayla and I have a limited understanding of dating apps like Tinder, frankly, they kind of scare us. 15:32 I know that you have to swipe. And I know it's based off of pictures, which I think is very superficial. 15:38 So if we broke up, do you think you'd use any of them? 15:42 I don't know. Because we've been together for a while. 15:45 We've been together for a while. It'd be really weird to get back into the whole dating world. Do you feel like you kind of missed it by like being...? I think I totally think I missed it. I don't know how to use it at all. 15:58 And we're not the only ones. 16:00 Thank God. I have not had to deal with that. 16:05 That's my colleague at Ryerson, John Michael. He's talking about dating apps. 16:08 The I, the idea to me seems so strange. I have friends who use it and who talk about it and it seems a little alienating. 16:19 John Michael's been in a long term relationship about six years, same as me. He's a little worried about the effect these apps might be having on relationship intimacy. 16:28 I don't know I maybe maybe we're maybe I'm old fashioned in this sense. But I I think that love is not something that you should play around with carelessly. I questioned sometimes whether technology makes it more possible for people to get hurt in relationships. 16:53 It's possible that this dating app anxiety that some of us pre-Tinder daters hold, stems from what we hear from our single friends. Here's Kayla, again. 17:02 Generally they hate Tinder. Generally, it's not like Ooh, I'm gonna go on Tinder and find somebody. It's like a god, I actually use this piece of trash. 17:09 But they feel they say they have to use it. 17:12 They have to use it because that's where all the kids are. That's where all the kids are. That's where all the young hip cool kids are. 17:18 Well, I talked to some of those young hip kids. 17:22 Um, they were fun to start off with, but yeah, yeah. 17:26 This is Mark 21 year old fourth year student at McMaster University. He's talking about his apps of choice, Tinder and Bumble. Bumble's a lot like Tinder, only female users have to be the first ones to instigate a match. 17:41 Like no they got I just I'm fed up with them. By the end of it, there's just I still very much prefer to talk to people in person. 17:48 Mark avoided dating apps at first until a friend in Teachers College at Brock, 26 year old Josh got him into it. 17:54 Josh got me into it last year, because we're just hanging out at his place and just said to try it. And the fun thing that it started off with was just like, it was like a social thing, like friends would swipe with us or like we'd swipe with friends just like you have like five minutes to kill before you're going out to the bar. And you just wanted to check it it was out because it wasn't like just you isolated in your room at the end of the night, just like swiping on it in the dark, just like just like illuminated by the pale glow of your phone. 18:25 I also talked to Josh about his experiences using the apps. I've been on dating apps for about two years. I've primarily used Tinder and recently switched over to Bumble. Like with Mark, Josh is starting to feel a little disillusioned with dating apps and a little nostalgic for dating in the pre app era. 18:43 It has this positive appeals to it. That's why so many people use it. But I think just over time, what an individual is looking for changes. And that is what charges the app. I feel like dates pre dating app are much more original and creative. Like from the examples that I would do. Before dating apps. This was classic, go to the movies. So that was a good one. But then you also kind of find ways to invent your own fun. You didn't have to have a prescriptive thing now everybody defaults to Oh, let's go to whatever restaurants trendy right now and then go home and watch Netflix and whatever. Before that though. It was like, Well, I'm going to turn my car into a drive it doesn't it Yeah, I would I would take my laptop, I'd throw it on the dashboard of there and like play some DVD movies off of it and turn the car into a drive it. 19:33 Josh says he's noticed his relationships have gotten a lot shorter since dating apps came around, something he in part attributes to something called FOMO, the fear of missing out. 19:44 People don't want to settle down and commit with something that they're not 100% sure of for fear that they might miss out on like thatgreater love for that better opportunity. So that I think is preventing a lot of people from making that one step to see things through or to you know, work through the hard stuff. They want the tinsil the perfect stuff happen right away. And as soon as that doesn't happen, they get bored. Unless they get bored, they get less inclined when they are less inclined, there's less energy, there's less creativity, there's less connection. And then you're kind of balancing this constant connectivity, where you're either answering emails, Facebook, messages, text messages, snapchats. And then you throw in these dating apps and then at the end of the day, you're just like, I've wasted so much energy, just keeping on top of things, that I don't really have the energy left to enjoy things. I kind of I just, I kind of missed the days of like, before smartphones in general. 20:33 While I'm sure app dating does work for plenty of people, and if it works for you that's that's great, honestly. But from the outside For the uninitiated, dating apps do still look pretty intimidating. Which leaves us long term, folk, you know, the ones who've been in relationships older than Tinder, feeling like we'd be fish out of water if we ever found ourselves single again. So where does that leave Kaylin and I? So you're saying is we shouldn't break up? 20:58 Ah, not really. I've also got zero problem like going out getting the dog and just being the dog lady. Good dog parks. You know what, it probably needs somebody at a dog park. Before I use like, Tinder. 21:14 You know what, I totally agree with your girlfriend. meeting at a dog park would be so cute. 21:19 I know. Right? 21:20 Well, now that we've gotten the male perspective, why don't we hear from some women about their experiences using dating apps? 21:25 Oh, I'm sure there'll be so positive. 21:28 Not so much. Our colleague Samantha Relijc spoke to to Toronto women who have had less than stellar times looking for love on Tinder. 21:42 If I had to describe my dating experience in Toronto, and like 10 words, it would be disaster zone with a side of potential. 21:56 It's sketchy. You think you know them? And then like, it could totally turn out to be someone that you don't really know. Because it's a huge city, like, yeah, people are capable of things that you don't expect. 22:08 Honestly, it just kind of feels like a very superficial game, in which the end goal is to like, never let the other person know how much you actually like them. 22:25 You're just like, oh god, I'm that person sometimes. I My name is Liz and I live in work in Toronto. I also work coat check at a nightclub once a week. And where the coat check is situated I get a bird's eye view of the dance floor. And it's it's crazy it's like a mating ritual, definitely. There's like girls yelling at guys, guys calling girls all these names. So people need to stop kind of taking it so harshly and like a hit to their ego because it's not someone's just not interested. Usually I use apps and after a little while I like to meet it's sort of like a public place, usually a bar get to know the person. But right now just due to like work and just how busy my lifestyle is. I like to use dating apps. on Tinder, I currently have about 2000 and some matches, not taking into the fact of people unmatching me. So if you added the people that unmatched me, it's probably around the 3000 mark. And probably I've been on 20 dates from Tinder. So do I have a friend who's very like self conscious about dating, and she feels like she can't do it. So I'd be like, these are the things you need to say, and he'll respond this way. And then you'll say this, and then three messages later, he's gonna ask this and you respond to that, then he's gonna ask you for drinks. And 90% of the time, that's kind of the script I use. And it works. I would say it is definitely an experience. And generally unfortunately, it's a negative one but you do find pockets of people want to like sort through and filter through everyone that are actually just really nice people and they are in a similar situation as you and they want to just meet other people and they don't have the time. So as a feminist, men generally like to attack that. So one time I had someone say, why don't you just protest that bullshit? Rather than saying like oh, I respect your decision or not wanting to go on a date with me? It really saddens me because you think of Toronto is this progressive city and this accepting city. I identify as a pansexual and once they hear that they automatically think threesomes or your kinky kind of not fitting the mold of a stereotypical woman in Toronto. They tend to either be really defensive and attack it and say, like, all these horrible things, or the fetishize it. I can't say that word, fetishize it. I studied neuroscience, I had someone say like, oh, so you're great at giving brains, which is like lingo for a blowjob. And you're like, wow, no, that's not what that means. I've decided I don't want to just hop into a relationship. So it's going to take a lot of time. But when I do find this person, I will love them unconditionally. And we'll have like a great life together. But it's just gonna take time and sitting through a lot of really crappy messages. 25:50 I was, I ended a relationship, like a sort of mini relationship with this musician. And when I met him, he was really great. He was exciting. And he just described himself as someone who wants to have like this feminist relationship with someone and preferably like another artist because he felt like their lifestyles would like, really mesh. And for a while, it seems really great. My name is Claire Scherzinger, I'm an artist and I live in work in Toronto. And even though there are many relationships, they would still just fall off the face of the earth. And I was like, You know what, I'm getting rid of online dating. I'm just, that's when I took a trip to Peru. And I was like, you know, I just need to be the best possible version of myself. So a lot of men, and like just people, they'll have these assumptions that you're like this intensely creative person that will change their lives, like open them up to new things. Just make filling this void that they have and that's just not the case. But it's definitely expected of you. And it's like, the term I get like that spin kind of like, coins is manic pixie dream girl. People say that kind of like cliche thing, like, you know, it'll happen to you when you least expect it, it will happen to you like if that's what you want anyway, a relationship. It's really like I believe that it does in the most unexpected times where you're focusing just on the best version of you. 27:35 So Cas we've been spending a lot of time with dating apps, haven't we? You know what we have actually. 27:40 Why don't we take a break from that for a bit? 27:42 Okay. What did you have in mind? 27:44 Well, I did a little story on a salsa dancing class that's been pairing up more than just dancing partners. Ooh, interesting. Let's hear it. 28:07 567123567123 now turn around. 28:11 Okay, so what happened was I love to dance, and I do a lot of sports as well. So, I used to go to, I don't like clubs. So I used to go to dance rehearsals. And then a lot of woman complimented me or your dancer. Well, can you show us and when a woman tells you gives you a compliment, you just take it with a grain of salt. Then my guy friends asked me says while you dance a while can you teach us these patterns, patterns, meaning like, in salsa, we have different patterns. And so then I realized I had something going for myself. And then eight years ago, I started my dance school and the dance school, I teach salsa and I teach pachala. It really gives me pleasure in teaching people that do not know how to dance and when they tell me they have four left feet instead of two left feet. that encourages encourages me even more, and I within within a day I can teach them how to dance. 29:10 Since opening his salsa school Errol's life has drastically changed in more ways than one. 29:16 Well it changed a lot. I mean, I used to go with my friends and watch sports on TV, or sit down in somebody's home and watch the sports, you know, but when I got to get dance also. I was nearly out every Saturday night dancing. So it transformed my life for me. Sitting down on the couch and watching TV to be active and socializing with people. 29:58 Anyone over the age of 21 are welcome to come to Errol's class. Some of his proudest moments being a teacher is setting up 20 couples at the school and creating lifelong friendships. 30:09 As well, I have a list a couple of dance socials a month, and through that people get to meet each other as well. So the big plus is this not lessons. It's a network of friendship and I've met friends, I've made friends. For eight years I've been teaching, I made friends and I still have them as my friendship. So it's a plus. 30:31 Fela Valdez is one of the many students that Errol has also set up in his studio. 30:36 What will happen is, I stopped dancing salsa for about three years. I just kind of got sick and tired of staying late, and the clubing scene. So last year, about a year ago, I decided to come back to salsa. And started just dancing a little bit on the weekends, so one Friday night, I went to social was in a church and she was there and she was there. And then Errol, who, who teaches classes, he told me go and dance with a woman because she's a good dancer. So I said, Okay, so I went to lunch with her. And then she was actually a good dancer. And that's the first time we met. But obviously, it took a few months before we became actually friends because I used to see her only and the seven. So when you go dancing, sometimes you'll have time to talk to people use them to somebody, then humans with another person. So it's no like a socializing. So eventually, I started meeting her in different events. And we came friends. And I guess it took about six months before we started dating. 31:45 Over the years feel has seen many relationships come and go. But think salsa is a unique way to meet people. 31:52 Well, I guess I know about six or seven people who have a long term relationship because of salsa. Now salsa, because of the nature there is man and woman. There is a lot of people who date and then they big break up and then date again and they break up. So it's an environment where like anywhere else, the resort kind of people, you know, some people they just go to meet a woman, some guys, some girls to go to meet men are necessary for a relationship just to play around. But in general, I know probably seven to eight people who are either somebody or marry someone didn't have very long term relationship due to salsa. 32:39 One thing that's also I give you a comparison about a lot of my friends, they go to the nightclub. They got a couple of beers, and to encourage them to go ask the lady to dance. And in salsa, within five minutes, you can get the hang of a lady to spend dance with and socialize with that woman. So for single people and for guys and women. It's a great place to socialize and interact with people. And that's what I love. 33:08 Errol's classes are only $10 for a session. One of the guarantees of attending his class is that you'll meet new friends and become energized. And who knows, maybe he'll set you up with your future boyfriend or girlfriend. 33:30 This has been The Dating Pool. 33:31 I'm Miriam Valdez Carletti 33:33 and I'm Cas Boisvin, 33:34 Today's show includes stories from ourselves as well as our music producer Eden Middlemen, our online editor Samantha Relijc and show producer David Greenberg. 33:42 Thanks for listening and good luck staying afloat out there.